How can a male win 2 silver medals in a women’s World Championship event

[bambambini]

Laurel Hubbard from New Zealand has just won 2 silver medals in the women's events in the Weightlifting World Championships in the US. Laurel at 39yrs old is much older than the other female competitors and has only really excelled in the sport to this level in the past few years for some reason.

www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11954269

Brilliant post @seafood

I don't want to lie down and tolerate having the rights, brave women have fought for in the recent past, stripped away In the name of tolerance. Men have never fully tolerated women in 'their' spaces (everywhere) and now our last few bastions of safely are being publicly stripped away.

I know there are many normal trans people out there who do not want this in their name (Miranda Yardley for one) but it can't just be up to a few brave feminists and brave transwomen to voice an opposition to the madness. People need to wake up to what's happening in clear view of everyone.

Declaring that any male person who says they are a woman is actually a woman is very very dangerous and will be abused (we are seeing it already and its not even bloody law yet...)

meatLaof

Perhaps it's more that I cannot comprehend why anyone would want males competing in a female sport. I just can't understand why anyone would support it, especially women.

@Changebagsandgladrags

Your lack of comprehension doesn't make you correct.

So, what do you think of my capitalist idea? If the ticket sales die-off, we can assume you're in the majority or vice versa.

meatyLoaf and meatLaof, name change or different posters?

accidental name change. I'm the same poster.

I'm being very outing on SEN boards so used different names and it's a simple typo.

I don't really understand what you mean meat

Are you saying that if ticket sales don't drop off and that people still want to watch natal men competing against women then our concerns are not valid

@Scabbersley

I don't think valid is the right word but more along the lines of 'not held by most people'

I don't think valid is the right word but more along the lines of 'not held by most people'

So when the gold, silver and bronze go to transwomen, you don’t think most people would find that completely unfair?

You’ve got a pretty low opinion of ‘most people’.

@Datun

No.

Yes.

meatLaof

Perhaps the money angle would be more persuasive?

Every woman’s grand slam tennis event will be played by fairly mediocre men.

Every woman’s Olympic event will be filled with and won by male also-rans.

I can’t see many people cheering vociferously for failed male athletes, when they can watch first class male athletes on the next court/track.

"Perhaps the money angle would be more persuasive?"

Absolutely.

People want a good fight / match / game. That was the reason for the outcry against Semenya (in my opinion). The general population doesn't care for unfair advantage. In fact, they like an underdog.

meatLaof

"Perhaps the money angle would be more persuasive?"

Absolutely.

So you’re persuaded by the fact that ‘most people’ certainly do not want to watch mediocre men.

But not by the fact that the process by which those mediocre men get to compete will eliminate women’s sport?

Remember, I haven't once argued for transmen's inclusion in sports.

I've said I'm turned off the issue by things like topshopchangingroomgate and (some) posters on this thread who try to turn it into men vs women and boring and reductive 'male entitlement' rants.

I think it's unfair.

I think it's down to rules (not laws).

I think it's less of an issue than many on this thread think.

I think it's more of an issue than changing rooms (which is a non-issue).

I think proving some point by using a gendered pronoun is petty and unintelligent but certainly not hate crime.

I think life isn't fair. It's an important lesson. I don't think that this unfairness is one-way between the sexes. Fighting for fairness is not the same as equality. Fairness is petty and equality is a basic legal expectation.

x-post

women won't be eliminated or eroded. You seem smarter than needing to resort to trite hyperbole.

Also slightly naive to think that professional sport won't notice this and change the rules of sport. Sport. It's sport!!! It's a game. How hard can you kick or push or pass or tackle. We aren't talking about racial segregation in education. It's lifting heavy shit up.

It's sport!!! It's a game.

Except it can involve a lot of money.

meatLaof

Okay. So we agreed in principle and disagree over detail.

I do happen to think that misogyny is at the root of this. It’s at the root of all sorts of things. Pornography, expectations on women, the balance of power in government.

Capitalism exploits it. Hence razors for women being pink and costing twice as much as razors for men.

There is an inherent power differential between men and women. And it results in women being thought lesser of.

A prime example is how transwomen (men) are driving the entire narrative, the most vocal and the most listened to. Because, as men, they have more power.

Contrast that with transmen (women) who have no voice, have no desire to enter men’s changing rooms or prisons and haven’t a hope in hell of competing effectively in male sport.

Women are worried about the invasion of men in their sport and spaces.

There isnt a man alive who is worried about a woman being transferred to his prison.

Men aren’t campaigning to ensure that their changing rooms remain male only or that women can’t enter their bathrooms.

Men don’t give a fuck. Because they don’t have to.

Show me a man who will be outraged that a 19-year-old girl has been made man’s officer? They won’t give a toss, largely because they don’t even need a man’s officer.

@Lweji

So can baccarat.

Did Kournikova and Beckham make their fortune through absolute talent?

meatLaof

Also slightly naive to think that professional sport won't notice this and change the rules of sport.

Of course!

If they change the rules, job done. But that is the only way that this can be resolved.

Meanwhile, in New York where self identification has gone through, you can be fined $250,000 for misgendering somebody.

I can’t tell you how I would absolutely LOVE to be washed in a sea of naivete and have this all wrong.

Meanwhile 19-year-old adolescents who make rape jokes and call themselves Jimmy Savile‘s apprentice are being given public office designed for women and to represent women.

And Hubbard isn’t unique! Fell running, cycling, roller derby, Australian women’s football, golf, all of them being won by men identifying as women.

Andrea Yearwood. A 15-year-old athlete. No hormones, no nothing, taking state titles. Depriving females of uni scholarships.

Still waiting for that rule change though...

It's sport!!! It's a game

And some of us have worked damn hard to get equal opportunities for women

"Okay. So we agreed in principle and disagree over detail."

Vaguely.

"I do happen to think that misogyny is at the root of this."

I thought you might. It isn't.

"Capitalism exploits it. Hence razors for women being pink and costing twice as much as razors for men. "

No. If you spend extra buying a pink and otherwise identical product then capitalism exploits stupidity. I personally use a double-edged razor (Edwin Jagger) and choose to shave in the same way DH chooses to. I pay ~4p a blade.

Capitalism doesn't exploit the sexes as every penny we spend (or don't) is on our own idea of utility gained. Capitalism is, by definition, free.

"There is an inherent power differential between men and women."

No.

Men don't have more power. Who says they're the most vocal and listened to? How do you quantify this?

"Women are worried about the invasion of men in their sport and spaces."

some women ... #notinmyname

"Men aren’t campaigning to ensure that their changing rooms remain male only or that women can’t enter their bathrooms."

Nor are the vast majority of women. Women don't "have" to care that a trans person is in the next cubicle. They might be told that they should by an AIBU user but that doesn't mean they should. I'm not. I think my lack of fear of penises is a social construct.

"Show me a man who will be outraged that a 19-year-old girl has been made man’s officer? They won’t give a toss"

I can also show you many, many, many women who aren't outraged that a 19 year-old man has been made woman's officer.

I think the biggest issue with your arguements is the false premise that all women agree with you.

"Andrea Yearwood. A 15-year-old athlete. No hormones, no nothing, taking state titles. Depriving females of uni scholarships."

Female (singular). Scholarship (singular). I don't know the case you're talking about but I can't see how it could be any other way. One place = one place.

@JacquesHammer

"equal" is the word you're after.

I'm halfway through a long flight and a little tipsy. I'm not sockpuppeting, I'm just too stupid to type properly.

I'm going to nap and come back but I do want to say that I've not been goading. I believe all I've said and have read other posts with interest.

Men don't have more power.

I really have heard it all now

maetLoaf

I don’t think you’re being goady! I do think you can’t read statistics.

Oh meatloaf you're so wrong