How can a male win 2 silver medals in a women’s World Championship event

[bambambini]

Laurel Hubbard from New Zealand has just won 2 silver medals in the women's events in the Weightlifting World Championships in the US. Laurel at 39yrs old is much older than the other female competitors and has only really excelled in the sport to this level in the past few years for some reason.

www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11954269

Chief you have summed up how I feel.

Do people really think that she went through all the trouble of transitioning just so that she could have an advantage in her sport?

What trouble? More trouble than any other competitor goes through for their sport?

it might surprise you to understand that you don't get to decide if this person is a he or a she

Well, I speak English, and in English, the gender of a pronoun is determined by the sex of the person you're speaking about - it's perfectly correct English to call a male 'he', and a female 'she'. Perhaps sometimes that might change, eg. drag queens using 'she' as an honourary term, but it's not required - might be considered rude in their culture, but understood that if you're not of that culture, then it's not, it's just correct speech

@meatyLoaf what do intersex people have to do with trans?
The majority of intersex people are still either male or female. A very small minority appear to be female with XY chromosomes, that is the only condition under which an XY person can be called a woman/she. Obviously though trans people are not intersex so your question is moot.

I have typed transitioned but I also mean transitioning. I mean anyone who is taking positive steps to transition to the opposite sex, hormone therapy etc.

I really find it astonishing that people think that this is something that men would do to erode women's rights and that that is more important that the protection of people who truly believe that they were born in the wrong body with all the stigma and mental health issues which go with that.

I don't mean anyone who is gender fluid (is a man one day a woman the next such as that Travis person).

@Assassinated

Her rivals have expressed unease at a perceived advantage, an argument echoed by the Australian Weightlifting Federation

AWF chief executive Michael Keelan said Hubbard's inclusion in the women's open class would create an "uneven playing field" on the Gold Coast.

They seem like comments to me.

I take it you can't find any example of any prosecution (attempted or otherwise) from misgendering therefore you were scaremongering or misleading or depending on use of modal aux. for your arguement; it could happen ...

Tolerance, who knew how many meanings can be ascribed to it!

Be tolerant of no safe spaces
Be tolerant of no safe changing places, or hospitals, refuges
Be tolerant of your existence being used as a means to simply validate someone else
Be tolerant of being gaslighted
Be tolerant of your language and how you describe yourself being eroded
Be tolerant of opinions of others now treated as facts
Be tolerant of being forced to call and treat men as women
Be tolerant of people who are happy to bully, beat and remove you from positions of power for not upholding their ideology
Be tolerant of the fact as a biological woman nobody gives a fuck about you or your concerns.
Be tolerant of any courses like women's studies now being considered offensive
Be tolerant of any grants created to even out the inequality being slowly given to men
Be tolerant as more and more men are placed into roles to represent you and your needs

So no, I won't be tolerant, I won't be amenable and I won't turn into a nodding dog that believes a magic wand of hormones or lopping of various parts of your body make you into something else. Oppressed minority? are you fucking joking, if they're oppressed it's because of other men not allowing them in their spaces or to dress/behave in a seemingly 'feminine' way and being abusive -which in turn is what they are doing to women.

I never thought I'd see the day where feminism being about the rights of women would be seen as radical.

@TheLittleShirt Sorry but your analogy is wrong, the only way exams and intelligence could be in any comparable to this would be if a 16 year old decided they are actually 7 and shouldn't have to sit their gcse's but actually the year 2 sats.

I mean anyone who is taking positive steps to transition to the opposite sex, hormone therapy etc.

Again, this isn’t possible. It isn’t possible to change your sex so that isn’t happening. No-one is transitioning their sex.

@AdalindSchade

That was a long answer to a closed question.

Floella that shocks me. So what i want to know is why are we all not discussing with such eloquency (no matter what side we are on) the right for transwomen to be free of the threat or reality of violence (sexual or otherwise)perpetuated against them - and us as women generally- by men who as I said just a minute ago are both cynically misusing their power, AND framing the cultural narrative so that apparently no dissent is possible?

I really find it astonishing that people think that this is something that men would do to erode women's rights

Men have bored holes in walls, spent hours lying in attics, invented shoes with mirrors and fake hands so they can spy on and grop women.

Sports people go through all sorts of drugs/hormones/training in order to compete at an elite level.

What on earth makes you think that a man wouldn't take some oestrogen and grow his hair to do this?

Note, that I'm not saying that's the motivation for all - those with dysmorphia are in a terrible place - but I don't for a second believe that every man who says he's a woman has dysmorphia, and neither do those men.

I really find it astonishing that people think that this is something that men would do to erode women's rights

You are extremely naive if you think they wouldn’t. Look at history, most of it is men coming up with varied and interesting ways to exert or retain power over others. Mostly women.

What? I don't have access to a complete list of prosecutions for hate crime and the ability to scan it for any that were due to misgendering in a couple of minutes.

I didn't say that lots of people/anyone has been prosecuted for deliberate misgendering. I said that it was considered a crime to do so. Which is true.

Do you think that any of the other competitors openly and directly questioning whether it's appropriate for Hubbard to compete in the women's categories will face negative consequences? Just a mention of "expressing unease" is not what I mean, I mean conducting an interview individually, where they criticise this.

Plenty of trans people deny they were 'born in the wrong body' and will call you a bigot for suggesting that's what being trans means
Likewise plenty will do absolutely zero physical transition and call you a bigot for assuming they will or want to

All I can say is thank god for Mumsnet users for bringing attention to these issues, it's scary that we have to give in to the newspeak and just accept all of this crazyness. I would never dare agree or speak about these things IRL. I have trans friends and am on a (fortunately co-ed) sports team with someone who is trans. I can't imagine the abuse you could get for speaking against these unfair advantages.

I didn't say that lots of people/anyone has been prosecuted for deliberate misgendering. I said that it was considered a crime to do so. Which is true

No it's not.

Donny that is semantics, gender then. Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical issue and the law protects people from discrimination resulting from that medical issue.

I do not believe my rights as a woman override the rights of people with gender dysphoria to protection by law.

I can see that in certain areas consideration should be given to physical advantages of people who receive such protection (such as sport).

I think as women we should refuse to buy tickets for any event where male people are allowed to compete in a women's event.

I believe that even a fully transitioned male to woman still has an athletic advantage over females. Things like bone structure amd height don't change when you cut off your penis.

If this male person had previously been winning silver medals against men and found that after transition was only able to win silver against women then I might have some sympathy. But this is a man who was too pathetic to compete at the top level and decided to be a woman to win one.

I find the suggestion that male to female transitioning is happening with the deliberate intention of eroding women's rights quite ridiculous if I'm honest.

In this case this is exactly what has happened. Laurel simply decided they are a woman, and are competing against actual women. Its not a coincidence that when competing as a man Laurel was not up to standard. Odd how as soon as he is competing against females, he is winning medals left right and centre. No advantage indeed...

I don't for one second think that everyone who 'transitions' is doing so with the intention of eroding womens rights. But its a little silly to deny that a (very loud) significant minority of 'transwomen' are doing just that. Also you cannot deny that the trans movement is perfect for the likes of MRAs to latch onto. Convenient.

So no, every trans person is not trying to erode womens rights. But the movement as it stands today is doing exactly that, and is encouraged by people who would like nothing more than for women to 'learn their place' and shut the fuck up.

2 points goals.

1. How do you know that this was Laurel's intention, has she said so ? Or are you making an assumption (which may well be right).
2. I have not said that no person is doing this just that the rights of an oppressed minority should not be overridden because of the actions of a few.

Donny that is semantics, gender then.

This is one issue where language really matters. Because the language is being used to justify the erosion of women’s spaces. It’s really important to use the right language when discussing this issue. Sex and gender are not interchangeable. They do not mean the same thing. As a male you can say you feel like a woman, and I will address you with your chosen pronouns, but you aren’t a woman, you aren’t female and you cannot become one. It matters that we acknowledge this.

So what i want to know is why are we all not discussing with such eloquency (no matter what side we are on) the right for transwomen to be free of the threat or reality of violence (sexual or otherwise)perpetuated against them - and us as women generally- by men who as I said just a minute ago are both cynically misusing their power, AND framing the cultural narrative so that apparently no dissent is possible?

This is the crux of it. It makes me want to scream with frustration that both women and transwomen like Miranda are going to be the ones who suffer due to all this identity bullshit. I've known transwomen (although admittedly had no personal friendships transmen) for years and not felt threatened by them just getting on with life.
Even if I didn't personally know them, as an example I've been to pubs and clubs where there's been a transwoman quietly going about their business in the toilets, and not felt threatened by it. I didn't think they were female but was happy to let them get on with it as they weren't bothering anyone. Now, I'd be far more wary because any man who wants to can claim to identify as a woman knowing that any challenge to this would be met with cries of bigot. This now makes me question their motives whereas before I wouldn't have dreamed of doing so. And so, women and transwomen suffer

@Assassinated

"Do you think that any of the other competitors openly and directly questioning whether it's appropriate for Hubbard to compete in the women's categories will face negative consequences?"

The same as you, I have no clue.

It isn't considered a crime.

@Changebagsandgladrags

You're under the delusion that all women agree with you.

We could consider that every ticket bought or not is a vote and that if women continue to support such sports, you're outvoted. Seem fair?

How do you know that this was Laurel's intention, has she said so ? Or are you making an assumption (which may well be right).

Because Laurel is sure to actually come out and say 'I was crap as a man, so I said i was a woman for an advantage'

Its assumptions. Yes. But given how things have actually happened regarding 'Laurel' and Laurels father...there is a reason my opinion swings that way.

I have not said that no person is doing this just that the rights of an oppressed minority should not be overridden because of the actions of a few.

Depends which rights you are talking about too.

The right to declare a male person a female?

I would never fight against 'trans rights'. But I do not think it should be a right to force everyone else to deny basic biology. Declaring that any male person who says they are a woman is very very dangerous and will be abused (we are seeing it already and its not even bloody law yet...)

...transitioned males to females are doing so to look at my breasts or show me their penis.

No one is saying that transwomen as a cohort are going to stare at your breasts or show you their penis.

No one.

What they are saying is that statistically transwomen commit sexual crime, at exactly the same rate as any other man. (Slightly higher in fact).

They are no different to any other man.

Plus, there is a cohort who transition for sexually motivated reasons. Stonewall’s own website includes fetishist cross dressers.

But the real killer is that self identification means that any man, anywhere, anytime can transition with zero criteria. No gender dysphoria, no born in the wrong body, no mismatch between sex and inner feeling. Nothing.

No hormones, no surgery, no dressing as a woman, no feminine clothes, no make up. Nothing.

He can be a six-foot bricklayer with a beard and hobnail boots.

A man, irrespective of whether he has gender dysphoria or not, vehemently demanding entry into women’s spaces and inclusion in their sports, is absolutely unfair and misogynistic.

It utterly ignores the inherent power dynamic between men and women.

It’s not two men a week who are killed by women, it’s not 85,000 men are year who are raped, it’s not men who started the #metoo campaign.

Men commit 98% of sexually violent crime. Not 2%.

Men are faster and stronger than women. John McEnroe said that Serena (or Venus, I can’t remember) would be trounced by a man who was 600 in the world.

So there are 600 mediocre men who could, with no effort, win every single ladies’ match at Wimbledon, forever.

And if you think that sounds ludicrous, it’s already happening.

Pronouns is the most superficial, farcical angle to this.

I wouldn’t care about calling any man in the world a woman, if it meant they stayed out of women’s spaces and sport.

If anyone can tell me how I can talk about this, how I can openly acknowledge that very reason to call men men, is because the way some men behave, without being called transphobic, I’d love to hear it.

And as far as I know (still checking), Hubbard, although he is being called a transwomen, does not say he is born in the wrong body, does not have gender dysphoria, and does not claim he has always been a woman.