For those who pierce their baby's ears...

[Username7654321]

Would you see it as okay to pierce their nose? Eyebrow? Tongue? Why is it okay to stab a needle through the ear lobe, when presumably most people would be horrified by any other piercing on a baby?!

You'll always be left with a scar but eyebrows heal Better than ears due to the small amount of skin.

At the end of the day you cannot possible compare an 11 year old who has dealt with the piercing herself and all aftercare and CONSENTED (indeed requested) with an infant baby who is being put through a painful process for no benefit.

My DD requested ears pierced at eight, if my DSS at similar age had then fine. Done with a NEEDLE, none of this shitty, with potentially serious lifelong health ramifications, gun bollocks, that is.

Nothing else for me, until 16. Note, both OH, and I, have numerous piercings. It's unfair to ask me of cultural, or religious, beliefs as I've never lived in these situations, and whilst I have opinions the same as I've detailed, they are MY opinions.

Just use a needle for fucks sake.

Vierna people are talking about babies & young children who are too young to make decisions, request that they want this or do any of the after care. At 8 there is an ability to do all these things

11 year olds are verbal but not really capable of consent. They certainly would not be able to choose between the merits of a Claire's gun and a needle.

(She could tattoo herself if she wanted to or get one in France since she is over 10, or Ireland where there is no law about tattooing though some parlours reserve the right to refuse service).

11 year olds are verbal but not really capable of consent. They certainly would not be able to choose between the merits of a Claire's gun and a needle.

Of course she was. Because that was the deal. She either got pierced properly or not at all. She knows how appalling piercing at Claire's is and agreed she didn't want that. It's a fairly simple, easy to understand topic. Just one that most adults choose to ignore.

Late to the party...

As someone of African origin, it's part of my culture to have a girl's ear lobes pierced. It's so much part of the culture that it's done before the baby leaves hospital by the ear-piercing nurse / lady. It's not even a thing. If you were poor, piercing would be done and they'd put a small black plastic chord into the hole until you can put a stud in. In fact, if you see a baby girl with no piercing, it means she was abandoned or neglected as a baby - or her mother was part of a strange religious sect. Overall, it's one of the symbols that you have been accepted into human world (as opposed to spirit world). The carat of the gold would symbolize your wealth.

The horror to learn that I would have to wait till my kids were 3-4 months old to do it in the UK! Even then, it was a small squeal that lasted 10seconds - more like shock I would say. Waiting till they are 2, 7 or 12 is far more painful.

For me, it's not comparable to FGM even though they are both cultural. This is because many women who have had FGM suffer from it even at adulthood and feel they are victims. Circumcision is closer to FGM but men don't suffer from it when they grow so it's not illegal. People who are pierced AS BABIES have no suffering from piercing their earlobes (at least not commonly).

Just thought I'd add some prespective from an African culture POV.

an 11 year old is I think capable of making a decision like this.
insideoutsider - This is because there is a cultural difference, and in the UK there isn't such a belief that if a baby doesn't have a piercing that they were abandoned or neglected at birth. The issue of culture has been discussed earlier in the thread. But on the whole, a baby having a piercing before they leave hospital would just not happen because it would be felt unnecessary and an unnecessary painful experience for the baby.
Can I ask if the beliefs you talk about are current (like considered normal in all African cultures) or if these are uncommon and dying out? I only ask because it sounds like a tribal belief.

I don’t give a fuck what “culture” you are from. It has no place in a modern progressive society and should be banned in the UK.

Multilating and causing pain to your child, that isn’t for the greater good, is WRONG whether it be ear piercing, FGM or circumsion.

Causing them pain is child abuse. End of.

YANBU.

The pain and discomfort that people inflict on girls even in infancy in order to 'mark' them as feminine is genuinely horrifying. It's not just ear piercing - it's barrettes, headbands, and stupid frilly dresses that they can't properly crawl or walk in.

Note that the pain and discomfort these things cause are not side effects - they are the point of these practices. Girl children are to be marked out as decorative rather than functional creatures, and that requires disciplining their bodies and restricting their freedom of movement.

I was in a jewellers waiting to be served when a little girl, about 4, was having her ears pierced. She was so hysterical after the first one was done that it ended up with two adults holding her down while it was done. I don't know how she was feeling but I know I was distressed. At one point I said I was going to phone social services as it was abuse. If you had seen it you couldn't describe it as anything else.

if you see a baby girl with no piercing, it means she was abandoned or neglected as a baby or that her mother was brave enough and loved her enough to say no to deliberately hurting a baby for no benefit to the child.

They stopped foot binding in China because people were brave enough to say, "No."

if you see a baby girl with no piercing, it means she was abandoned or neglected as a baby

... or that her mother was brave enough and loved her enough to say no to deliberately hurting a baby for no benefit to the child

It has no place in a modern progressive society and should be banned in the UK

Multilating and causing pain to your child, that isn’t for the greater good, is WRONG whether it be ear piercing, FGM or circumsion

Causing them pain is child abuse

Agree. 'It's fine in 'other cultures'' Isn't good enough. There are thousands of people on MN who are from overseas - we're not an ignorant flock. There are thousands of cultural practices that are barbaric and would never be tolerated in the UK.

Piercing babies' ears should of course be illegal. The fact that people are doing it 'to look pretty' beggars belief.

'It hurts less when they're babies,' makes me uncommonly angry.

I told my DD she could have them done when she was 18 and didn't need to ask. She's 28 now and still hasn't had them done.

Jacques -
Of course she was. Because that was the deal. She either got pierced properly or not at all. She knows how appalling piercing at Claire's is and agreed she didn't want that. It's a fairly simple, easy to understand topic. Just one that most adults choose to ignore.

She only knows what you have told her, or what you have directed her to research. If she had a mother who wasn't concerned about Claire's guns and friends who were all getting theirs done there, she would do it there.

The point I am making here is that an 11 yo is easily swayed and not necessarily making decisions that are completely autonomous. This is good as parents can influence them more than maybe parents realise. It is also good for shareholders of Claire's.

Girls aged 11-12-13 and maybe even younger can come under pressure to shave all of their body hair. How would you feel about that?

I think we run the risk of trivialising foot binding and FGM when we throw infant ear piercing in with them and label them all as horrible abuse.

Jessikita Your post doesn't even deserve a response.

EMSMUM16 Can I ask if the beliefs you talk about are current (like considered normal in all African cultures) or if these are uncommon and dying out? I only ask because it sounds like a tribal belief. Do you know how big Africa is? It will be impossible for all cultures to have 1 practice. But i can say that piercing is quite common in very many cultures.

donkeyskin How can you say the pain for a girl is the point? You've added wearing headbands to that too! The pain in piercing (all 2 seconds of it) is indeed a side effect. You only know of girls - what about cultures all over the world that circumcise boys? What about those that tattoo boys at certain age to show their place in society?

Grannytomine You misunderstand. No, we mothers WANT our daughter's ears pierced and in hospital especially because if I leave it till age 4 or 12, she'll be in 'real pain'.

You know, I read the full thread before I posted my last message . There was an even divide of people in both sides of the argument for various reasons. But some people just come out with venom once they hear someone else's 'culture' means something different from theirs. The level of ignorance I see here sometimes is very worrying. I'm not speaking just about piercing here.
Note that the UK is tiny compared to many African countries. And in each African country, there are 100s of cultures. It would really do the world some good if some would step out of their own little oyster and see the world as it really is. Google is your friend.

I think we run the risk of trivialising foot binding and FGM when we throw infant ear piercing in with them and label them all as horrible abuse. Or we risk normalising harming our children for no good reason by supporting infant ear piercing. I do remember hearing an A&E doctor on tv saying he considers it abuse after many years treating children in extreme pain with infected ears, some needing surgery to correct the disfigurement caused.

Girls aged 11-12-13 and maybe even younger can come under pressure to shave all of their body hair. How would you feel about that?

She shaves her armpits because she prefers it. We've had a long chat about what body hair is for, safe removal ways and the only good reason to remove it is because she wants to.

I think this age is the perfect time to give them the body autonomy over smaller decisions.

Re: the Claire's thing, three of her friends have their ears pierced there so she's very aware of their "services".

She's now planning hole two, two out of the other three have taken theirs out as they hurt/didn't heal properly.

What about those that tattoo boys at certain age to show their place in society?

This thread isn't broad enough to decide where each and every practice sits on the sliding scale of things we do to children around the world.

Of course tattooing children wouldn't be tolerated int the UK, which seems to be the main thrust of the discussion. And neither should piercing babies ears. Your example demonstrates that whilst we can observe other cultural practices around the world, it does not mean that they should be absorbed or tolerated in the UK.

No one's actually suggesting that every ear piercing culture around the world should stop. But that doesn't mean that that we turn a blind eye to it in the UK, where we can make laws to protect babies who patently need it.

insideoutsider - it isn't ignorance that is driving people's opinions, it is that parents have considered their responses from their own experience, what is relevant to children and what is not. I notice you haven't answered my original query?
I really do not see the point in playing the cultural card to justify causing pain to your baby. That is where parents who don't agree with this practice are coming from. Cultural difference does not mean that some of those customs have to be tolerated or agreed with, otherwise we would still be burning witches (please don't anyone say they still do in some cultures!)