To be surprised that M&S has a section on their website for Modest Clothing?

[Scabbersley]

here

What's that all about then? Why does it warrant its own category?

yeah, its been a long road but I don't agree the word is offensive like I said or the offensive meaning you are granting it (that is that all other clothing sold by m&s not designated as modest and the people who wear it are immodest or somehow impure) is supported by the facts. I am a woman too, albeit a jewish woman and I am entitled to my opinion.

If I said something was offensive to the Jewish community, I would want you to listen to me but that doesn't mean that's the end of the matter. You will still be entitled to your opinion that it was not offensive for whatever reason. Also lots of Jewish people might not agree with me as to what is offensive or not, I am not the ultimate arbitrator of what is or isn't offensive to Jewish people. Why do you think you get to decide for all women?

But nothing should NEED to be decided for all women here. It's a purely unnecessary division of clothing.

thinks you. but not me and lots of women who might be interested in that type of thing. e.g. if I am in a rush and looking for an outfit for a bar mitzvah would be good to have an indication of what might work. so i have a different perspective and opinion.

I think the point was zsazsa that if you said this X word is offensive to me (and explained why) it would be dismissive/out of order/ignorant just to reply 'no, that's not offensive.'

e.g. if I am in a rush and looking for an outfit for a bar mitzvah would be good to have an indication of what might work. so i have a different perspective and opinion

Unless one had been living a solitary existence for many years in a remote rural location with no access to the internet, television or magazines I am not sure how it would be possible to reach early teenage years without noticing the styles and type of clothing generally offered by different retailers.

Do you really think if covered up clothing is a priority women don't know Topshop is hardly going to be the go to brand?

And even if one had been living in such splendid isolation why would the term "modest" be more useful as a search term than "fuller coverage" or "long sleeved" ?

The word “modest” is judgemental and too strongly associated with certain types of religious men who decide - apparently - what is and is not appropriate for women to wear.

M&S has just made yet another big mistake.

Surprise.

Or even "bar mitzvah clothing" - that would be absolutely fine!

I understand zsazsa that if it were a genuinely helpful term, and no other would do, how one group's disapproval of the word might be the starting point for a dialogue rather than an end point.

But BUT- there are loads of other perfectly neutral terms that wouldn't offend anyone!! So, if, say 'full coverage' became the shorthand term to use when searching last-minute for a suitable outfit, all your needs would be met, wouldn't they? So why doggedly defend the loaded term? It's only a word, after all...

I am not sure that secular women should be too eager to explain to religious women just how they should go about living their lives better - how they should access the goods they need, and how misguided they've been to do things in a particular way.

It could be seen as ever so slightly like the kind of mansplaining where men tell women how to be good feminists or how to go about giving birth.

There should be a word for that, Mumsplaining perhaps.

And the irony there, anna is that I too have a religion!! I haven't mentioned it on here, but I am a church-going Christian. Do I get an opinion about heavy-handed, offensive marketing now?

I'm curious - is there anything offensive about the term "full-coverage"?

And, as you know, anna my post was nothing like mansplaining or mumsplaining or any other splaining.

Neither I nor any one else on here can tell M&S how to market their wares. We can and will express how we find their wording offensive.

Having stated, many times, how something is offensive, it can be galling to have others defend the offensive term, with a sort of two fingers to your sense of injury.

If the only justification for the word in question is that it's 'convenient', my suggestion of an equally convenient but inoffensive word is simply common sense. If you still want the offensive word, can you explain why? Why do you want to offend other women?

M&S has just made yet another big mistake
Surprise
ha ha yes, quelle surprise!
they dont exactly have a good track record do they!

I'm curious - is there anything offensive about the term "full-coverage"?

Nothing at all. There has been some rather weak argument from the fans of "modest" that buyers would not understand what it meant.

So wanting a major retailer not to use a word that has unpleasant implications for women in general is telling religious women how to live their lives?

You couldn't make it up!

Well, I think the majority on this thread have expressed their dislike of the word modest. Its been interesting to hear the other side, albeit irritating to have people explaining ^what modest means^ as if we don't have a dictionary and can't actually read or hear.

Very good Anna . I'm still complaining about the word not how anyone does their shopping. BTW my husband's family are Romanies or Roma if you prefer. Now that really is a can of worms, they really are at the bottom of the pile.

AnnaMagdalene

The issue of mumsplaining arises on this thread when a shiksa attempts to instruct somebody who is frum about how to do their shopping....

Not clear what the above actually means but no one , absolutely no one has told women what to buy or not to buy or how to buy or not buy clothes.

I am however seeing posters like you Anna absolutely determined to minimise any concern without giving any justification why a non judgemental term could not be used.


I was kinda wondering if the preference for "modest" over "full coverage" was because the associations are more in agreement with the religious motivation for it?

I.e. it feels more meaningful which "full coverage" doesn't?

I really can't tell from the thread because there doesn't seem to have been any common ground.

Shiksa is Yiddish, may be derogatory for a non-Jewish female, frum -devout also Yiddish I believe.

I'm convinced Anna works for m and s

If Anna works for M&S she is doing a terrible job.