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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be surprised that M&S has a section on their website for Modest Clothing?

934 replies

Scabbersley · 29/11/2017 09:07

here

What's that all about then? Why does it warrant its own category?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Childrenslivesmatter · 03/12/2017 09:43

Alright. Silly me. Stupid me. You are right. Well done. Have one on me Wine

Childrenslivesmatter · 03/12/2017 09:43

Thank you radical. Thats what i was originally saying

AnnaMagdalene · 03/12/2017 09:52

I also find it interesting that some religious posters are so defensive. Heaven forbid that someone of a different background should have an outside view that they could educate and correct - or that the outside view might actually contain some valid concerns about the treatment of women.

I think some religions are being attacked in a very real sense. Gravestones are vandalised and attempts are being made to damage places of worship. People who wear items of clothing that are associated with specific faiths are insulted as they go about their daily business. In terms of online conversation there are also attacks though these are often veiled. Those who are not of that faith will appear to 'know' things about it, which are based on news items - again often selected because of the knowledge that this is what people want to here - and on 'below the line' comments that are unlikely to typify mainstream thought. Those who read such items will then come online and say they 'know' what that faith is like and are terribly worried about that faith's presence in society because the people who practise is are growing in numbers - utterly ignoring the fact that they may have very little social or professional contact with those who practise that faith, let alone having attended any form of worship or read any of the relevant texts.

I think the situation can be compared to this. A stranger glimpses your child X in a supermarket, when X is as their worst. They then post online to say I saw X and they are a spoilt angry child. It made be that X is not angelic and sometimes drives you mad. However, you will feel furious about the judgements somebody has made about your child and how they have chosen to express them.

It's exactly the same with one's faith. People who take their religious seriously are well aware that their communities are imperfect and that some passages within their sacred books can be problematic. But they don't take kindly to individual sneers and attacks - particularly at a time when the general climate is one of unfriendliness and intense suspicion.

SolidarityGdansk · 03/12/2017 10:29

Brilliant post Anna.

LoislovesStewie · 03/12/2017 10:34

But is we can't criticize the we are really done for aren't we? I'm not talking about abuse just criticism . I would do the same if this post had become about Christianity.

Rebeccaslicker · 03/12/2017 10:37

Lois - in fact I think it is just as much about Christianity as any other religion. I think in the Uk perhaps we do tend to associate covering up with Islam because that's what seems to be in the media a lot. but it's also v much encouraged by christians and Jews in some communities.

Not surprisingly as they all have the same sort of patriarchial points in their foundations IMHO.

CharisMama · 03/12/2017 10:38

I agree with loislovesStewie they should sell the clothes but not call them modest but that implies that other clothes are immodest which is ridiculous.

LoislovesStewie · 03/12/2017 10:43

I agree that it is about any faith;but this post seems to have become hijacked and become about Islam .I keep saying that I object to the word 'modest' being used. And why! Thank you Rebecca; if required I could write a book on what I object to in Christianity both from a personal perspective and from observation. To me it is all patriarchy and misogyny.

ohfortuna · 03/12/2017 10:45

Using the term modest is obvious attempt to appease religious sensibilities
It may well backfire on them

AstridWhite · 03/12/2017 11:15

Okay, apologies Children I didn't see that someone else had made a reference to being ashamed of your bodies.

I think perhaps what they were trying to get across was not that you seem to feel ashamed of your bodies, but that you are conditioned to think you should feel ashamed of wanting to show them. That's the difference.

Childrenslivesmatter · 03/12/2017 11:26

Thank you astrid. And actually that is a very kind concern. Bit i can assure you most women are not made yo feel like this. Some ofcourse, i cant speak for all. But the ones i know choose to dress like thus and all have different waus to describe it. For example i say covered, my friend says modest, someone else says islamically. For me its just an interpretation of saying covered or longer garments if you will. However i do appreciate your worry about the use of the word modest. But in my oppinion, on this ocassion it is a marketing tactic

Rebeccaslicker · 03/12/2017 12:11

Children - in the Uk, in your community, that may be true. It's not true for everyone even in the uk, as I learned from my flatmates at university, whose parents were so fierce about what they wore and did.

But in other parts of the world, the controlling of women in this way is a huge issue - don't you agree?

And it's that sort of judgment and control that we are objecting to here.

FreudianSlurp · 03/12/2017 12:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheGoldenBowl · 03/12/2017 12:32

Of course it's a marketing tactic children We all know that.

But marketing strategies regularly cause upset when they perpetuate poisonous ideologies or unhelpful stereotypes.

Many of us have said we find this particular word offensive here. You don't because it chimes in with your own belief system. That's great for you. But don't start telling other women that they can't be offended by something. You're offended if people make slurs about your religion (which they really haven't on this thread); we're offended if people use certain terms about women. It cuts both ways.

zsazsajuju · 03/12/2017 12:34

To summarise, as someone from a religious community that uses the term modest to describe clothing which looks a certain way (and part of the demographic to whom this is aimed at), I am quite comfortable with the word. I can see why some people might not like the word but it's more than a stretch to say that calling some clothing modest means that other clothes are all immodest and it's some sort of personal attack on the various posters. That's ridiculous. M&s are just saying- here are some clothes that might suit the requirements of some people.

As a Jewish women I am understandably concerned about attacks on me, on other Jewish people and on my religion. Violence and harassment against both men and women dressed in a way which shows their religion (particularly Moslem women and Jewish men) is a daily reality in the uk. And of course elsewhere. Sweeping statements about what Muslim or Jewish women do or don't do or what their religions mean from people who are outside the community and often know very little about it come across as bigotry. Unfortunately that's because most of the time that's exactly what it is.

Of course that does not mean that a religious community or a religion should not be criticised. But knowledge and sensitivity are your friend here. Rudeness, ignorance, sweeping statements and putting full stops after each word do not help persuade anyone.

No one community has a monopoly on feminism. Prejudice towards women who dress a certain way or who are members of a particular group is certainly not anything to do with feminism. Treat people as individuals and try to listen to their points of view without preconceived notions about them or that they are wrong/some sort of weak submissive women.

AnnaMagdalene · 03/12/2017 12:38
  • It's not true for everyone even in the uk, as I learned from my flatmates at university, whose parents were so fierce about what they wore and did.

But in other parts of the world, the controlling of women in this way is a huge issue - don't you agree?

And it's that sort of judgment and control that we are objecting to here.*

I am not quite sure who the 'we' is here. I think among secular women in the UK there is actually a range of attitudes towards clothing and also range of degrees of control exhibited towards less powerful members of society. Many workplaces dress codes that impact particularly on women. School uniform can also operate in a discriminatory way. Parents will often attempt to exert some control over female children thinking that certain fashionable items of clothing may cause them to be seen as older than they are and expose them to sexual attention. Women and men will also attempt to judge female appearance in slightly less direct ways - using derogatory terms against women who may, for example, choose not to remove all traces of visible body hair. The quite limited range of fabrics and styles available in affordable mass market clothes for childen - skimpy fabrics, 'cute' slogans etc is another way to try and control female appearance.

I think there is a huge amount of control and judgement going on in secular Western society about female appearance. It just operates in a slighly different way. It's more that we don't want to perceive the way in which we are limited. It's much more comfortable to say the problems are all elsewhere.

TheGoldenBowl · 03/12/2017 12:43

zsazsa

All of that is fine. I agree - respect people's beliefs, listen ti people etc.

So why can't any one listen when we say we object to a word? Why do we have 35 pages of people saying "It's fine, stop being so sensitive"??

If you took exception to a word that you perceived carried a level of offence to the Jewish community, I would listen to you and avoid that word. Immediately. Even if I didn't share your sense of offence.

Why can't you do likewise?

AnnaMagdalene · 03/12/2017 13:28

I don't think zsazsa is in charge of brand management at M&S. Also despite the fact it was originally a Jewish business, I think it has moved a long way from its roots.

I think to hold all Jewish/Muslim/fundamentalist Christian people as responsible/guilty for an individual companies marketing decisions is a bit like demanding that the total stranger in a hijab apologies for 9/11.

How would I feel as a white person whose father was a Christian if I was asked to apologise for the actions committed by Anders Behring Breivik?

TheGoldenBowl · 03/12/2017 13:38

anna

Was that to me?? I think you've totally misunderstood my point...

I was even making passing reference to the origins of M&S Confused

I am saying that if anyone - individual, newspaper, company, MP uses a term which a group finds offensive, they should believe the people who are upset. Not spend ages tell them to toughen up. I used the Jewish example simply because she'd said she was Jewish and regularly saw/experienced offensive behaviour.

If someone is offensive to your group (whether the group is the female sex or the Jewish faith), you are within your rights to be offended and request a modicum of sensitivity.

TheGoldenBowl · 03/12/2017 13:43

*wasn't even

LoislovesStewie · 03/12/2017 13:56

Right so some years ago a footballer John Terry got into trouble for allegedly saying to another footballer Anton Ferdinand ''Anton you fing black c... f*ing nobhead" . Now are those only words? Individually what would you think? Would you be prepared to be called any of them? . John Terry said he was not a racist but did use those words, the 'c' word didn't seems to worry anyone much.. John Terry was accused of a racially aggravated public order offence . All of this took place during a football match. You might think that I am using a stupid example but black by itself is a colour often used to describe clothing etc. We don't describe children born out of wedlock as bastards anymore but at one point it was commonplace to do so. the 'c' is still fairly taboo.the 'f ' word less so. Anton appear to be mixed race; I won't presume to comment further as it is right to decide how he wishes to describe his ethnicity. Clearly words mattered to him and there are in all likelihood reasons why he took offence. So when I say I am offended by calling these items 'modest' I think I am entitled to be; based on the history of women being kept in a particular place in society according to whether they are 'modest' or not.

Which is why words are important . They are more than they seem, there is history to them and the way they are used.Discuss.

TheGoldenBowl · 03/12/2017 14:04

Well said lois Your post is more eloquent than mine. I think I confused anna when I posed the question "Why can't you do likewise?" ... I wasn't literally blaming anyone on this thread for the decision by M&S(!) I was taking issue with this insanely persistent defence of an offensive term. The way I see it is a bit like this:

Big Company: we think these clothes are modest. Women's clothes obviously need a modest category.

Feminists: hey, please don't use that word about women. It has all sorts of offensive connotations.

Some MNetters: it's not offensive it's not offensive it's not offensive it's not offensive it's not offensive ad nauseam

If you're personally not offended, you don't get to explain to others why they can't be!

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 03/12/2017 14:13

Lois, Astrid and GoldenBowl

WineCakeFlowers Gin

You need and deserve them.

TheGoldenBowl · 03/12/2017 14:20
Grin
Childrenslivesmatter · 03/12/2017 14:42

In this way yes i do understand where you ladies are coming from. I do get it. I didnt not get that i was just expressing anofher opinion. I just dont think many people would give it too much thought u less it came to them on a forum or the like and had time to really think about it. Anyway. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. X

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