To be surprised that M&S has a section on their website for Modest Clothing?

[Scabbersley]

here

What's that all about then? Why does it warrant its own category?

You're like the gobshites trying to force women out of hijab because you think men must have forced them into it.

Am I?

Again, I'm finding it quite hard to engage with your argument and style; it feels like the first year of uni all over again.

But I would still like to hear your thoughts, based on what I've said, on why you feel I and others on this thread would like 'these clothes, the term women have decided to call them, and the women themselves to stay out of [our] mainstream' and how I 'want them to be Other.'

Well I imagine you needed to do first year several times, so you would hark back to it.

If you think my opinions and delivery are so ridiculous, why are you focusing only on my posts?

Well I imagine you needed to do first year several times, so you would hark back to it.

I have responded to several posters, not just you. If someone else had posted in between your and my more recent posts I'd respond to them. It's quite hard to reply to non-existent posts.

If men/culture don't force the hijab on women, why do you think it is it that women from all over the world haven't taken to wearing one?

Genuine question, not trying to be a GF.

If men/culture don't force the hijab on women, why do you think it is it that women from all over the world haven't taken to wearing one?

That's quite an easy one. It's because they don't share the same beliefs.

tiny that was very rude to rhiannon. I don't think I'll bother engaging with you from now on.

Right, that's precisely what I would have said. But tiny seems to be saying it's pure choice, and denying that this free choice has anything at all to do with men or religious dictat or cultural pressure, so I was interested!

you're not engaging anyway. You ask if you aibu, but you aren't willing to listen to anyone who says you are. what was the point of asking?

But tiny seems to be saying it's pure choice

Tiny said no such thing.

I'd like to be sure that every woman who covers her hair and most of her body is doing so out of her own free will, rather than under threat of violence or other abuse (and the same for every woman who wears ver revealing clothing, of course). I'm concerned about the concept of frumpy, humble, don't-look-at-me-I'm-worthless clothing becoming more mainstream when we already have a lot of victim-blaming of women who have been attacked by men; we have schoolgirls being sent home because their (perfectly ordinary) clothing is 'distracting boys/male teachers' and a lot of high-profile, vicious women-haters being elected to public office. I'm concerned that women who don't have any wish to cover themselves up are going to come under increasing pressure to do so in more public spaces.
Calling clothes 'modest' is a reinforcement of the idea that women's bodies are shameful, and that a woman who likes to display herself and attract attention is a bad woman. It's not appropriate for a large corporation (which is not a superstition-peddler) to endorse these ideas.

Yes. Good point. If it is truly free choice, and in some way liberating, why don't more non-Muslim women wear the hijab?

why don't more non-Muslim women wear the hijab?

Oh come on, you're not that ignorant are you?

You are the ones saying that "modest clothing" is a religious value judgement. You're the ones doing the value judgements here.

I'm not making value judgements. Quite the opposite. I don't believe it is any of my business what other people wear. Be it a burka or a bikini, I will treat them the same and will try not to make judgements based on clothing.

I don't want it labelled ultra conservative wear or jihadi wear or anything else. Just something neutral for both those who choose to wear it and those who don't.

Asking for a value judgement not to be placed on those who don't wear it doesn't automatically mean that a value judgement is placed on those who do. It would be perfectly possible to find an accommodation which meant names that placed value judgements on no group of women.

That's how this reads, tiny. If it's not what you meant, please could you explain what you did mean?

Thats not at all how it reads, that is just what you misunderstood.

If a reason to do something is to please god there's literally no free will in that choice.

And I asked politely for you to explain what you did mean. This is an Internet forum; people may read things in a way that was not how you intended, because they don't have the benefit of your tone of voice and facial expressions.

Calling clothes 'modest' is a reinforcement of the idea that women's bodies are shameful, and that a woman who likes to display herself and attract attention is a bad woman. It's not appropriate for a large corporation to endorse these ideas.

Exactly this.

it does read like that tiny

But you are ranting so probably not making a huge amount of sense.

Calling clothes 'modest' is a reinforcement of the idea that women's bodies are shameful, and that a woman who likes to display herself and attract attention is a bad woman. It's not appropriate for a large corporation to endorse these ideas.

Yes, perfectly put.

Thank you, Scabbersley, for the support. tiny is being rude to lots of other posters on here as well, unfortunately.

Then you're just repeating the idea that because some women use the term modest clothing they are calling your clothes immodest.
Which is making their needs about you and your thoughts. Can you realy not see the problem with that?

yes its a shame as it is a really interesting discussion

I am also interested in the accusation of "ignorance". IF you're going to claim that the hijab isn't worn because women are required to do so, and therefore that it is offensive to suggest it's because of any pressure, then why is it ignorant to ask why it hasn't taken off as a fashion item all over the world?

Of course if you're going to back pedal and claim that it's not actually free choice and that's not what you were saying, there's a much more obvious answer!

An interesting discussion? All of you saying the same thing and agreeing with each other and having a pop at the one poster on the opposite side?
you have an interestingly narcissistic view of what makes for an interesting discussion.

I asked politely for you to explain your post.
How is that having a pop at you? You still haven't explained it!