To be surprised that M&S has a section on their website for Modest Clothing?

[Scabbersley]

here

What's that all about then? Why does it warrant its own category?

I agree Sprog and the concept of modesty is for many something that only applies while they are out in public around unrelated men.

For some women their whole wardrobe will consist of things they consider 'modest' but for others, in female only environments they will often reveal that under their abaya they are dressed exactly the same as non-covering, non-observant women. They can rock a sexy low cut dress the same as the next woman. Just not out in public around men they aren't married to.

The concept of modesty, therefore, isn't about the woman and her personal style choices, but about the men who might want to look at her and judge her based on what she shows them.

Modest clothing IS a religious value judgement

I think most observant orthodox jews and muslims would tell you that

You don't like the people who wear them

If i didn't like the people who wore M and S clothes with long sleeves I wouldn't have any friends tiny

Seriously? WTF?

All this bullshit about some clothes being grouped together!

It's not about that, please don't pretend you can't see what it's about. It's about the term 'modest' being given to a set of clothes that cover a woman from neck to toe to wrist and often fitting loosely over the female form.

If they called it the long sleeved section or the baggy section or whatever, no-one would give a stuff. For the last flipping time, it's the value judgement attached, not the clothing itself.

Pyonggang Yes, the people who wear it might call it that, but that loads it with a moral superiority in the same way you might say 'righteous'. It's not just a 'type' of clothing. The type is long sleeved, covered. The term modest is a quality of personality, not of clothing.

I can see what it is about. It's a load of women complaining that another load of women are being catered to in a mainstream shop, and saying that they shouldn't be.

It's not about you. Calling those clothes modest is not calling you immodest. Don't be so self absorbed.

in the Quaker one, they are actually condoning wearing aprons and bonnets. I think we'll be waiting some time for M and S to reintroduce those

They'll have a special "handmaiden chic" clothing line and any garments have to paid for at a special "know your place" till

I think conservative would be a better label for these clothes
That they have chosen to use modest suggests to me that they are marketing the Range to people who want to wear these clothes for religious reasons

It's a load of women complaining that another load of women are being catered to in a mainstream shop, and saying that they shouldn't be.

Your comprehension seems to be letting you down. I don't see anyone on this thread giving a rat's ass about whether women wear these clothes or not; the issue is with what terminology is being used.

You are the ones saying that "modest clothing" is a religious value judgement. You're the ones doing the value judgements here.
Um.

Do Muslims/Jews/Quakers etc use the term 'modest' to talk about how women dress or should dress, or do they not?

Will they have a brazen show off range of clothes?

fortuna

I'd buy them. And I'm looking forward to the No Better Than She Should Be line too.

Do Muslims/Jews/Quakers etc use the term 'modest' to talk about how women dress or should dress, or do they not?

Yes. But also many non religious women use the term as well. As I said, you are deciding it says a particular religious thing.

Conservative doesn't mean the same thing. Do you people not understand that modest clothing is the term and has been for a long time, its not something M&S invented and it isn't something you can change. your opinion is irrelvant.

Do you people not understand that modest clothing is the term and has been for a long time, its not something M&S invented

'you people' is very rude.

Yes, 'we people' understand that M&S haven't invented the term; in fact some of 'us people' actually say that on this thread explicitly. Again, I have to question your reading and comprehension skills.

They have however adopted a term that has religious connotations for a more mainstream/wide audience, and it is this creep that some of us (people) find problematic.

I can see what it is about. It's a load of women complaining that another load of women are being catered to in a mainstream shop, and saying that they shouldn't be.

No. Really. That is what you want it to be about because it confirms your religious persecution complex but that REALLY isn't what it's about.

If modesty is just a neutral term why isn't there a men's modesty range?

your opinion is irrelvant

Clearly not to you tiny as you are clearly enraged by it. Are you normally like this to people who don't agree with your views?

I don't think a patriarchal society hiding women away, or obliging them to cover their bodies, faces, hair etc is a positive thing, but neither is a patriarchal society where women have internalised form fitting, short and revealing clothes as the norm is a good thing or particularly liberating either. Especially when you look at say, men's clothing which is not generally so tight or brief.

No. Really. That is what you want it to be about because it confirms your religious persecution complex but that REALLY isn't what it's about

I'm an atheist, but thanks for some more of your stupid assumptions based on nothing

They have however adopted a term that has religious connotations for a more mainstream/wide audience, and it is this creep that some of us (people) find problematic

Yes, my point exactly. You'd like the clothes, the term women have decided to call them, and the women themselves to stay out of your mainstream. You want them to be Other.

Is there a modesty section for men, or is it just aimed at womenv

*?

Ok then tiny if it's not confirming your own religious persecution complex, then it is confirming that of others, in your mind.

Or perhaps it's just a skin colour thing with you? I don't know which but you seem determined to make it about a dislike and persecution of someone or other, rather than actually listening to what is being said.

No it isn't, at all.

I'm listening, I'm disagreeing. Are you so arrogant to assume I would agree with you if only I listened to you a bit more?

We all know what this is really about, you just won't admit it, even to yourself.

Yes, my point exactly. You'd like the clothes, the term women have decided to call them, and the women themselves to stay out of your mainstream. You want them to be Other.

You sound like a student soapbox politician.

I agree with what Astrid says above.

I wonder if women HAVE decided on the word 'modest' or if it's their religions' liturgical and cultural traditions (generally started and perpetuated by men) and their (generally male) rabbis/imams/elders who decided?

I am in fact quite happy at the idea of M&S and whoever else making these kind of clothes (long sleeves/higher necklines etc) more visible and easy to find. I am of no religion or religious culture but, as I've said upthread, like to wear long sleeves and long/loose dresses and trousers in some circumstances like holidays in the sun. I would happily (if it weren't for the term M&S have chosen) buy clothes from this selection for holidays. I'm pretty sure I couldn't do that if I wanted 'the women themselves' to 'stay out of [my] mainstream'; I would have to be out of my own mainstream to do so.

By the same token, I do not want 'these women' to be Other. Unless I could buy these clothes and still not be 'Other' myself.

I wonder if women HAVE decided on the word 'modest' or if it's their religions' liturgical and cultural traditions (generally started and perpetuated by men) and their (generally male) rabbis/imams/elders who decided?

They we go, the patronising "women don't choose for themselves, its the men forcing them". You're like the gobshites trying to force women out of hijab because you think men must have forced them into it.
Do you know how offensive that is?

Is there a section called immodest clothes? Anything good in it?

Or maybe M&S could put a big red warning label stating Immodest Clothing Range?