To wonder why the sham of marriage is still a thing

[munkynutts]

Genuinely.

Just take a look at MN, chockablock full of people who are on their second or third marriages - not judging, just a fact.

Most people couldn't give a fuck about the religious aspect. Most people in this country struggle to even make it to a Christmas service, but suddenly find their soulful side when it comes to marriage?

As well as the rise of one person having multiple marriages over the course of their life, weddings are becoming way more OTT and flamboyant too and we see how many threads there are on here about weddings and gift dilemmas. Once upon a time nee couples did actually need a toaster, now guests are expected to chip in so they can have an experience?!

It just seems to me that the days of sticking around in a relationship that doesn't work for you are long gone, for better or worse (better IMO).

So shouldn't we just cut this wedding crap and have civil partnerships for everyone? Because if you dont believe in god and dont believe in one true love to stick with come what may, then really, whats the fucking point other than to have a Princess Day? Wouldnt it be better to jist buy a nice dress, go down to town hall for civil partnership and then have a few close friends down the pub, rather than expecting guests to fork out for what is essentially a sham?

Then we have divorce and all the complication and entanglement that brings. I mean, just is it worth it?

OP I think I understand what you are trying to say and I kinda agree with some of your sentiments, apart from in your opening post where you say people should stay in bad relationships.

There should be a easier an way of getting legal recognition for a couple in a cohabiting relationship, if they want it. Without going through the pomp and ceremony of a wedding, especially when like you say most people are not religious. I guess the church wedding, for the non religious, can almost be likened to people celebrating Christmas, it has religious origins but most people aren’t celebrating it for them.

Even a simple registery office wedding can be a bit of a faff, if all you want is legal recognition. I also, which maybe down to my personality think it is a bit odd to feel the need to broadcast to the world you have a boyfriend, or girl friend.

I have been both married and I am currently in a long term cohabiting relationship, the latter has lasted far longer than the former, I have minimal rights (neither of us do) should we choose to split, which shouldn’t be right. So yes I agree there could be a better way to declare your commitment to another human being.

Like many on here, I think you'll find the word sham is a bit OTT.

Of course many marriages don't work out, so what? You believe you are doing the right thing at the time - and there is nothing wrong with that. Divorce and separation have been around for centuries, in many cultures.

After a number of failed relationships, I met DH and we married within a year. We are still together 14 years later and with 4 children. Will we stay together forever? Who knows? I can't honestly say I would separate TODAY but it might be that one day he will cheat or I will feel the need to move on, or we will become different people. It's worked so far for us.

Even if we ended up divorcing, I wouldn't say our marriage was a "sham". It was done in good faith, out of love and we provided the children with a secure home when they were growing up. I think we've done ok and I would do the same again no matter what the final outcome!!

PS We didn't get married in church, but I don't see that would make any difference.

I think that loads more atheist should get married in church. All tax payers support the CofE via its tax free status and the gift aid that's pumped back into it so it should supply the only service the vast majority of the population want from it.

It pisses off my big gay arse that I have to pay for the upkeep of an institution that gets to discriminate against me. If Christians want a Christian only church, they should pay for it. It costs considerably more than the Royal Family but doesn't seem to be seen as being as poor value for money.

I got married for love and I took my vows before God with all sincerity.

I got married in a barn with the doors wide open so that nature could be part of the whole experience - no where near a church!

My experience is nothing like a sham...so sad that you experiences have brought you to this conclusion.

Haven't RTFT but I had a civil marriage, not sure what religious aspect you think there is to that..?

I married at 20, I’m 28 now and still happily married. I was raised an atheist but decided to dip my toe in religion for myself and now attend Church. Marriage may not be necessary in this day and age but it’s a tradition that will never die. Also, if t fails with DH in the future and I decide to get married, again and again... I will ! If it’s how I choose to celebrate our union that’s my choice and I won’t be told it’s a sham. Some people just try to change everything these days and want us all as robots !

Clearly whole gay marriage hoo ha, with the church defining marriage as a sacred institution, means it isnt actually as clear-cut as youre8making it out to be.

It's spectacularly clear cut.

It's been possible to conduct an entirely non-religious marriage in the UK since 1836. And the clear majority of weddings take place outside a place of worship. Civil wedding ceremonies cannot include any religious element at all. That some wedding ceremonies include a religious aspect, the minority, doesn't change the fact that marriage and religion are not necessarily linked and indeed are not in most cases.

In answer to your question about why marry rather than cohabit, well, it depends what you want. There are some legal and financial provisions that are only available with marriage. So you can have all the contracts you want, but you won't automatically inherit your partner's unused IHT allowance if they predecease you. You can make wills, but you won't be able to challenge theirs if they change it in the way you would if you were married.

Also, marriage doesn't mean that the chances are you'll have to separate. The opposite, actually. The majority of marriages do not end in divorce and cohabiting couples are more likely to separate.

I can see your point OP. But getting rid of marriage wouldn't change a thing. People are people we want what we want, so marriage would simply continue under a different banner.

I suppose marriage at least bestows some legal rights which are good for the partner who gets shafted when the other starts messing around. I don't see that co-habiting, despite I think being deemed more modern, is any better in fact it's worse than marriage. Women living with men in the man's house, paying strict 50% of everything (often on lower income) but not on mortgage.

Basically a glorified flatmate with the bonus of housework and sex on tap for the man. That's not progress it's madness, for the sake of a man. Having children with a man who isn't prepared to marry you, is another. As I've seen more than once in real life, he'll be with you on the 'marriage is just a piece of paper!' thing. Then years down the line, leave and marry another woman.

But a world in which people no longer wanted to marry, would be sad. I've a mind slowly but surely we are heading that way. Then again internet and media have a way of sensationalising certain things so perhaps not. Hopefully.

For me I will only marry once. It was vital I married in Church even though I don't go to Church. There has been times I've wanted to go as I've needed the support and peace I thought I would get there but circumstances have stopped me. I didn't have a "Princess Day" and only wore the dress I did as it was tradition.

I see people getting married more than once as kind of brave in a way. They still have faith in the sanctity of the marriage vows and want all it brings for them. There will be some people who married more than once as they were widowed. Do you want to try and belittle them too? Some people will find themselves divorced which wasn't their choice. Do you want to consign them to a life without a legal spouse?

I think marriage should be supported and promoted more. When it works it's a lovely thing. But I'm old fashioned and come from a very bad background.

I married in church at 22, straight after graduation, had a wonderful marriage only ended by the unexpected death of my DH at 53. It might not have worked for you OP but it does for many. We are all different but there was nothing that was fake about my marriage.

Completely agree with you OP

Totally agree Op. And I think a lot of posters on here are being obtuse.

Of course no one wants to stay in a relationship with a cheat or one which is absuive. However since many of you seem to feel this is a legitimate possibility then why the hell are you all sticking up for marriages? Marriage means in for life regardless.
If you think it's ok to have two or three meaningful loves then don't get married. Ask the state to find some other way of acknowledging your financial / next if kin status .

Wouldnt it be better to jist buy a nice dress, go down to town hall for civil partnership and then have a few close friends down the pub, rather than expecting guests to fork out for what is essentially a sham? I wore a nice outfit, went to the registry office, got married, then had a party in the pub. No religion or princessing involved. Have we not been properly married these 20 years?

Are you a fully functioning adult, OP?

How rude Hiding. Would they be more adult with a divorce or two under their belt.
Much more childish thinking the realtionship in your 20's is going to stay the stay for the next 60 years. And be surprised when it isn't.

I was referring to someone managing to get to be a fully functioning adult without realising that some weddings happen in venues other than churches and many, I would say most, are non religious.
I was not referring to the op not having been married.

I e now read the whole thread having read the OP and then posted. 8m now confused about something but wouldn't be daft brave enough to ask about it?!?!!

Hiding. I took the Op to mean that church marriages were a sham as so few people attend chuch accept for weddings and funerals. Even if you are a believer there is no compunction to stay married or remarry if people want. Hence that marriage in a church should be now become civil partnerships.
Not sure on Ops stance on registry offices although a fair few of those end in tears too.

I had a civil ceremony for my wedding. We had a naming day for my daughter. We're not religious but wanted to get married to show love and commitment to each other!! It was an amazing day but we didn't do it for anyone else. We did it for the marriage not for the wedding.

Are you always bitter? Or did someone do a poo in your coco pops this morning?

Just typed out a lengthy response, then deleted with a "meh" as decided it's just a goady thread.
Have a nice biscuit instead.

DH and I got married in a Register Office. I come from a very religious family. I can promise you that all my aunts and uncles regarded us as living sin and dd born out of wedlock and therefore a bastard.

It has made no difference to anything really, except if we were to stay with any of them we would be given twin beds.

Marriage isn't anything to go with god in my eyes.

It was a legal service, with both of us promising to be in it for the long haul. Nothing religious about it and it was just a quick service and a small garden party.

But for those that are religious, they should be able to commit to each other in whichever way they want and it has sod all to do with you

Well I live in a parallel universe. Most of our friends and neighbours remain committed to marriage. Some are onto golden wedding anniversaries.
I have been to very few secular weddings- a Druid one, a couple of registry offices but mainly churches/religious buildings of all denominations and faiths.
We married in a church with full nuptial Mass as we believe it is a sacrament rather than a legal arrangement. Our vows were taken for life - we really did mean ‘ until death do we part’.
I think and hope our children do likewise. It seems to be what they want and some already have clear ideas about how they see marriage.
I think statistically, marriage is increasing again and divorce is reducing. That might be due, at least in part, to high numbers of Catholic and Muslim immigrants - who tend to want commitment and marriage.

The term sham of marriage is quite offensive, by the way.