To think the Nativity story is more worrying in terms of consent issues than sleeping beauty etc?

[grobagsforever]

Inspired by the sleeping beauty discussion (but not a TAT). I agree that the message of men kissing women who can't consent is a damaging message for young girls but I'm baffled as to why more people aren't concerned about children being exposed to the nativity.

Mary is impregnated by a male God. In the biblical version she is 'asked' (although how she'd have the courageous to refuse I don't know) but in the children's Christmas version the line is usually something like 'The (male) angel appeared and told Mary she was to have a baby'

Then a mute Mary is transported by donkey at the request of another man, made to give birth in a stable and then visited postpartum by a series of men! All without her explicit consent or consultation.

Am I the only person who thinks this story should not be taught to young children??

Why didn't Charlie take his mum to the factory? She would have appreciated a day off. Leave Grandpa to look after the olds.

Re Immaculate Conception:
As I understand it, the point is not that sex is a sin, but it relates to the concept of 'original sin' with which we are all born. Original sin comes about at the time of conception, so the way to avoid Mary and Jesus being born with original sin was to have the story of the Immaculate Conception. That's what makes them different to the rest of us, who all have sin innate within our human condition.

All that money Saskia? It was sixpence for a bar of chocolate wasn't it?

One can't help but wonder why the angel Gabriel didn't have the foresight to book a room at the inn.

Madhairday exactly. Extensions. But we've all made poor hairstyle choices.

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed interesting - I accept your antique trustafarian hypothesis but your post now makes me wonder if Jesus wasn't just on a really, really long gap year.

The three wise men were actually a hairdresser, a stylist, and a make up artist, and the gifts they brought were actually GHDs, designer threads and MAC. For Mary to look fabulous in her post partum portrait.

One can't help but wonder why the angel Gabriel didn't have the foresight to book a room at the inn

Or influenced the inn keeper?

Or told Herod not to kill all the baby boys under 2?

BarbarianMum, I didn't post about the money, I mentioned the granddad's miraculous recovery. But, thinking about it, why was he hoarding sixpences when the family were living on cabbage soup? He had more than one.

And yes, hippy, I should imagine poor Mrs Bucket would have appreciated a break from all the caring and cabbage soup making. Poor woman.

You must remember that inns in that era , and houses. Had a ground floor for animals and people lived above, so basically Jesus was born in the basement. I'm not and never have been a Christian although I like the academic side of religion, so we have a non-denominational mid winter festival but it's a bugger to get cards for

Fromage I'm thinking it was. And that 'lost weekend'? He went to see the Stone Age Roses, took too much of whatever passed for ecstasy, lost his posse and fell asleep in a cave. After that his life got flipped, turned upside, when Mary and Joseph got scared and said 'you're moving in with your auntie and uncle in Bethlehem'. That's why we didn't hear anymore about him.

I see your point op however I don't believe that removing or sanitising this or any other story is the way I'd choose to go.
I'd prefer my DD learnt the stories and then I talked her through the aspects of the story I find problematic. Explaining what parts aren't OK anymore and why. I think it's important to acknowledge that the past and present contain real life situations and stories that are no longer acceptable.

Maybe it was all Mary's doing in the first place.
Totally bored because they hadn't invented hair straighteners and many other things, she found some seriously fermented wine and got hammered and made it all up, covering a one night stand (where she fell pregnant) with some bloke and deceiving her betrothed.

The age of consent is only 16 in the UK now.
So we should scrap all of Christmas and sit quietly contemplating the 10 commandments and be apologetic for having messed things up.
For impartiality, other religions exist.

I’m not a fan of the ‘borrow-a-womb’ aspect of the story. I think it does make Mary look passive. She said ‘yes’ - but are you really going to say ‘no’ to the Creator of the Universe, especially if, as a good Jewish teen girl, you are familiar with his OTT exploits in the OT?

Plus, the so-called immaculate conception of Jesus seems to suggest that other conceptions are maculate - an unfortunate way of looking at a normal biological process.

I hanker after a story that allows Mary to be more than a perambulating womb.

If I had been in charge of the storyline I’d have had Mary finding Jesus in a Moses basket under a date palm, deciding to keep him and having lots of adventures as she – intrepid, brave and without the need for a male sidekick - keeps him safe from the evil King Herod.

Tringley would you also say that then that the Romans did not execute any early Christians? And if you agree they did, who do you think they were following - Paul?

If protestants don't believe in the immaculate conception do they believe that she got down and dirty with god or that jesus wasn't his son?

I am sure from school days nativity, Mary was a 14yrs and not 16.

Interesting thread op. Now can someone link me to other thread please.

Protestants believe in the Virgin Birth nousername, but they don’t believe in the Immaculate Conception, which is different: the belief that Mary was conceived free of the taint of Original Sin.

Mary has no lines in school Nativity plays purely because she IS so important. Mary is The Part that all parents children want. Therefore there is no need for Mary to have lines as well, these are saved for the lesser parts.

Nousernameforme I think Protestants don't believe in the immaculate conception because they don't believe in original sin so there's no need for it. The immaculate conception doesn't actually mean 'God made her pregnant without having sex with her' though so they can keep that bit.

ahh good to know i figured immaculate conception/virgin birth were different names for the same thing.

Cross post YesThisIsMe (and you explained it better!)

It would be interesting to have God and Gabriel having a chat in a version of the school Nativity.

Mrs p. My dd is 8. She knows what a virgin is because she asked me what it means. I told her. I do not call that over sexualising my child! Just honest

Mad
That's a minority view among scholars, Tringley. Pretty much all peer-reviewed biblical scholars agree that Jesus was a real person in a real place. The mixing him in with ancient mystery religions has been debunked. Even most well thought of atheist scholars don't take your view.
Please post links to prove the last two sentences. I have only ever read evidence to the contrary, unless of course it's an American evangelist christian website, hardly a reliable source. Also please explain how do they all dismiss the total lack of evidence There is not one single shred of primary or even secondary evidence of any such man. At a time and place of strong record keeping. The bible isn't primary or secondary evidence, it is simply evidence of what people of the xtian faith believe.