To think the Nativity story is more worrying in terms of consent issues than sleeping beauty etc?

[grobagsforever]

Inspired by the sleeping beauty discussion (but not a TAT). I agree that the message of men kissing women who can't consent is a damaging message for young girls but I'm baffled as to why more people aren't concerned about children being exposed to the nativity.

Mary is impregnated by a male God. In the biblical version she is 'asked' (although how she'd have the courageous to refuse I don't know) but in the children's Christmas version the line is usually something like 'The (male) angel appeared and told Mary she was to have a baby'

Then a mute Mary is transported by donkey at the request of another man, made to give birth in a stable and then visited postpartum by a series of men! All without her explicit consent or consultation.

Am I the only person who thinks this story should not be taught to young children??

Another link showing a point in history when women became legally dis-empowered;

octavia.net/womens-rights-anglo-saxon-england/

Thank you @Fanciedachange17.

How about Home Alone - we should probably ban that as the parents were neglectful and it doesn't send out the right message

But it's funny though

@sagamartha - well given it's a child inappropriate story I wouldn't teach it at all. Schools are there to educate our children, it for parents to decide how to handle Christmas/Easter.

do you know, reading this, I realise that my children's school nativity was probably directed by an atheist feminist! She did her best with the raw material to make it all about the strength of Mary.

I agree and Mary was likely between the ages of 12-14 at the time, married to a much older man. It's sick.

Beauty & The Beast is another one. Belle is weird as she reads books. Is locked up and abused by a violent beast and develops Stockholm Syndrome.

I am what I call a bit religious. I am a Catholic and I do believe in God and I go to church a couple of times a year. I see your point OP and don't care about people questioning the validity of Christianity.

However, my tolerance of this will stop the day parents at my school start interfering in our school nativity or church services with their PC bullshit.

All very true. I was just trying to exalting the nativity story to DD1 yesterday as she is of an age where she may notice her cousins etc talking about it.

Reminds me of the jerry springer opera- 'raped by and angel raped by god. '

She certainly would have been in a position to refuse.

I am teaching DD1 not to be rude about it all, but those complaining about the thread- the title makes it pretty clear it was a non believer. Just ignore it and move on.

agreed, martha, Home Alone and The Muppets Christmas Carol = Christmas is here!

Although the muppets is another one - the only female constantly yearning for a man's attention only to be cruelly rebutted time and time again. Doesn't teach our youth much about dignity.

"I agree and Mary was likely between the ages of 12-14 at the time, married to a much older man."
I don't think Luke and Matthew give us much to go on about their ages do they? Matthew just says he was a just man. Is all the extra information from 4th century decisions of various Councils, or are there books in the apocrypha that add to the account?

Schools are there to educate our children, it for parents to decide how to handle Christmas/Easter

As part of that education, schools teach about religion and they teach the stories associated with that religion.

For Christianity, the birth and death of Jesus are pivotal events.

Are you saying that schools shouldn't teach them?

The majority of people who have a faith in this country are Christian. We have laws and traditions largely around Christian belief. Knowing about the birth of Jesus and the nativity is knowing about why we celebrate Christmas in this country.

The thread would be funny, if everybody could get the joke. It seems that the professionally offended are serious though!

sagamartha perhaps the question should be why we are allowing our children to be told a story as if it were fact in the first place? Christianity was quite brutally forced on a population which was far more reliant on nature and therefore more inclined to a pagan lifestyle. Historians have argued that Jesus's birthday would have been in March not December and it is just a story. Even some Christians don't take it literally. I'm reading the OP's point as questioning the underlying facts of a dis-empowered young girl being impregnated and used for her body as suitable impressions of very young children.

Mary was pleased to enter into an altruistic surrogacy arrangement, with God as the intended parent.

As an aside, literature, films and even song lyrics provide endless topics for discussion on attitudes towards women at the time.

That's a whole separate thread though

coddiwomble the OP has consistently repeated this thread is not a joke but is designed to stimulate discussion and be thought provoking.

OP if you are concerned about the issue of Mary having no voice in the bible, you might be interested in Colm Tobin's novel "The Testament of Mary" which he wrote for precisely that reason.

@BanyanTree - You consider informed consent to be 'PC bullshit'?

Outstanding.

However, my tolerance of this will stop the day parents at my school start interfering in our school nativity

Why? State school should be neutral and there is no need of all the religious talk such as nativity etc... in a school. Unless of course, your u consider the U.K. to be a religious state where the Church of England is the national church/religion.

So yes, I think there are a lot of good reasons for parents to ‘interfere’ in the school nativity IMO.

@YouthsAStuffWillNotEndure - my concern is more how this story is usually depicted to children- rather than what theologians may or may not argue about the story.

grobagsforever this puts you in a horrible position at work. Are you allowed to act as your conscience dictates or are you forced to continue because "this is how we've always done it"?

grobag inagree that thatbstory actually lays the ground for a certain way of looking athe world.
Christianity has some bery strong links with patriarchy and considering women as ‘lesser than’. These stories are basically reinforcing that in the children psyche, making men the most important people, men who take the decisions, men/god/Gabriel (aka a manly figure)who decide what is going to happen to Marie etc...
Oh how to be able to be pregnant and give birth is seen as the most important thing for woman too! (See the comments from above posters as to how there could be a miracle when a barren woman finally gets pg!!)

Young kids are funny, they forget the name of the angel, about the shepherds or wise men, some even forget whoJesus is aka the son of God. But they all know about the baby Jesus being born. Then they misspell Jesus in about 7 way, because even he is not that important really, and it's nearly home time and they're fed up with it all.

No it's not a theologian's point of view - it's a novel and a very thought-provoking one. It has been turned into a one-woman stage performance which I saw at the Barbican where it was powerfully portrayed by Fiona Shaw. I think Meryl Streep has also done it.