to wonder if this mum calling for Sleeping Beauty to be banned is going a step too far, or not?

[ShatnersWig]

Don't worry, I've not linked to the Daily Fail.

metro.co.uk/2017/11/23/mother-wants-sleeping-beauty-pulled-from-school-because-it-teaches-bad-lesson-about-consent-7101539/

Is this taking things a step too far or has she got a point?

But they gave me an unrealistic framework to extend my status as a victim within the family and hope that someone would some day rescue me instead of realising I needed to do it myself.

Absolutely. And there are a number of women who still believe that a woman's greatest failure is to be single, or fail to 'keep a man'. The strength, skill and capacity required by single mothers to raise children and work full time alone, whilst also single handedly running a house is overlooked because she failed, as a woman, to keep a man happy.

There most certainly is a 'right thing' for all girls and women. And we should most definitely be discussing what that is.

Would your children's lives really be so empty without fairy stories? What if you had proof that they were damaging to a girls though processes?

Thought...

Would your children's lives really be so empty without fairy stories? What if you had proof that they were damaging to a girls though processes?

I loved fairy stories and myths although I concede the versions I was familiar with were not the Disneyfied versions. I still enjoy fantasy literature. I remember being about 6 saying to my grandfather could I be a princess and he just laughed and said maybe. In real life he encouraged me from a very early age that I would be going to university (in the days when less than 10% of the population did). I grew up to be a lawyer not a princess.

To answer your question , yes, it would be a loss. Can you really not tell the difference between fantasy and life?

Banning books is the top of a very slippery slope if you ask me...

In real life he encouraged me from a very early age that I would be going to university (in the days when less than 10% of the population did). I grew up to be a lawyer not a princess.

To answer your question , yes, it would be a loss. Can you really not tell the difference between fantasy and life?

But that's not everyone's experience. My childhood was characterised by "no one will ever marry you because... "

Your dad (very important) brought you up with the knowledge that these were just stories and separate from real life, some of us were brought up with the knowledge that these reflected/were the model for real life.

My education was not valued or important because all that was important was that a man would marry me. The idea that I could become educated and support myself, thus not needing a man to be willing to marry me, completely escaped my parents.

I went on to get a first class degree, but the thought that I'm not 'good enough' for a man is very pervasive.

I'm 43.

saturday that was my experience, although just from my DM's side. My Ddad always insisted I would be a doctor when I wanted to be a nurse (for example-I did neither) but I do think it's conditioning of women too. I hate the whole princess thing. However, the Sleeping Beauty woman is a PR who has had her profession and business name mentioned numerous times in the newspaper. She's a shrewd businesswoman who has found a cunning way to use fairy stories to drum up free publicity for her business so they can't be all had

Raised Haha, haven't looked at the link, tbh. Was just responding to the fairy tale stuff in general!

Your dad (very important) brought you up with the knowledge that these were just stories and separate from real life, some of us were brought up with the knowledge that these reflected/were the model for real life

It was my grandfather but no matter. Can people really not tell the difference between fantasy and real life? That it needed to be explicitly pointed out?

It's not about it being different.

The whole purpose of them was to teach girls how to be girls and boys to be boys. That is the very raison d'etre of fairy tales.

They are as much of a teaching tool as any other. So unless you are explicitly told that they are not representative of real life and just a story, then why would you realise it?

Imagine what a child sees during a day:

EG...

An episode of The Tweenies where they visit a bakery and learn how bread is made.

An episode of Fireman Sam where they learn to listen to adults and not play with matches.

An episode of something educational where they learn a maths concept.

A fairy tale where they are shown how boys/girls behave.

Dismissing it as fantasy doesn't work because even the He-Man cartoon finished off with a moral or a lesson every episode. Stories are used as a way of teaching children so you can't be confused that they learn the lesson within.

If it weren't generally accepted that these were a problem then there wouldn't be more subversive versions written (e.g. Paperbag Princess) where these norms are intentionally rejected.

When my son was about 3, his dad and I did something together to fix something. My son said, "well done daddy, you're a hero". His dad said, "your mum did it too. What about her?" and the reply was, "mummy you're just beautiful".

You clearly had a different experience, but no you cannot deny the experience of others.

Your dad (very important) brought you up with the knowledge that these were just stories and separate from real life, some of us were brought up with the knowledge that these reflected/were the model for real life

Oh fgs I don't even know where to begin with that. Mermaids,fairy godmothers, wicked witches are not real. You needed to be told that?

I’ve heard it’s illegal to ‘huff and puff’ and blow houses down these days. I must let the Daily Mail know.

Surely children aren't read exclusively fairy tales, and I would have thought that a greater influence on them would be the comments and attitudes of the adults they come across in their daily lives.

It's the messages that are real, not the characters.

Big Cook Little Cook aren't 'real' either, but it doesn't mean ovens don't get hot.

Anyway, i don't know whay you are getting cross with me all I've done is explain that the very purpose of fairy tales was to instruct boys and girls on how to behave properly for their gender.

That you think it's ridiculous is your choice, but that is why they came about.

Children aren't read exclusively fairy tales, no. But the fairy tale narrative as ideal is pervasive in loads of books for all ages- particularly those marketed to girls and women.

Surely children aren't read exclusively fairy tales, and I would have thought that a greater influence on them would be the comments and attitudes of the adults they come across in their daily lives

True. But many adults reflect similar attitudes.

Boys will be boys; I cried when I found out I was having a boy; bringing daughters up to be 'ladylike'... all these sentiments refer to one thing only - expectations of gendered behaviour and all are things I've seen on MN many times over the years.

Or rather gendered expectations of behaviour.

Men who can't use washing machines.
Men who can't buy their families birthday cards presents.
Men who 'need' sex because they're differen to women.
Periods being 'disgusting'...

All stem from the same beliefs.

In Perault's (I believe it was) version of Cinderella, the 'ugly sisters' weren't ugly at all. That came about in later versions where beauty was the the preferred female characteristic.

In the Perault's version, the step sisters just had slightly bigger feet and they cut of their toes to squeeze them into Cinderella's slipper. The blood was representative of menstrual blood and the idea that women's 'bleeding' was disgusting and sinful and something that should be kept hidden. It was shameful.

The details of the narratives evolve over time to reflect the prevailing zeitgeist.

You might think it's as simplistic as "I know mermaids aren't real" but, actually, a lot of children do need to be told that. They are no less fantastical than many of the creatures that do really exist.

Saturdaynight before the slipper was glass it was fur thing about that as a euphemism.

• think

I'd rather open discussions about these stories than ban them. I hope my children will be inquisitive rather than using unhelpful phrases like 'political correctness gone mad' or 'she must be a pc weirdo' to close discussions.

@Icantreachthepretzels I didn’t think anyone could come up with a good defence for why they are good and any feminist way. Wow did you fight your corner!
However, you would have to have an engaging parent will to explain the books from a feminist perspective without changing the narrative. I think with children it can be taken literally. What you have written takes thinking and analysing. Most children are literal thinkers so are most adults. I must say you have opened my eyes. I might sneer less next time.

I also, don’t think you should be group in the same group as those who merely think it should not be banned because of pc gone mad. Your reason, is defending it from a feminist perspective while some others who disagree, well they have they reasons.

Well..Belle kissing the beast and falling in love with it?? Bestiality maybe ......

I WOULD say it was a ridiclous case of "political correctness gone mad" if there were no cases of men thinking that sleep is a kind of "default consent" for sex. The fact that so many do seem to think this makes me wonder if it's not so crazy after all...

I don’t imagine that many adult rapists and sex offenders would claim that reading Sleeping Beauty as children led to their offending behaviour. I would imagine that not many little boys would be that interested in the story anyway.
The irony *
*
It’s not suppose to be a story based on fact- it’s fiction! She is comparing it to real life which is not what a fairytale is about. If your drink gets spiked or you are too drunk to know what’s going on (being unaware of what’s going on) how is it different?