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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to wonder if this mum calling for Sleeping Beauty to be banned is going a step too far, or not?

235 replies

ShatnersWig · 23/11/2017 12:30

Don't worry, I've not linked to the Daily Fail.

metro.co.uk/2017/11/23/mother-wants-sleeping-beauty-pulled-from-school-because-it-teaches-bad-lesson-about-consent-7101539/

Is this taking things a step too far or has she got a point?

OP posts:
ZigZagandDustin · 23/11/2017 16:57

Thank you MrsTerryPrachett!

I think this IS an important issue. And if they are going to read books they might as well be ones that don't leave a sexist narrative in their heads.

NegansBitch · 23/11/2017 17:04

What about snow white? Slavery, attempted murder then young girl moves in with 7 much older men who use her as an unpaid cleaner and god knows what else. Obviously rich from their diamond trade yet the villagers have no idea who they are...stinks of something fishy if you ask me.

Weebo · 23/11/2017 17:51

What she said.

user1492877024 · 23/11/2017 18:31

Aperolspritzer123

its not about unnecessary hand wringing, it’s more About being aware of the unhealthy normalisation of abuse. Which in my opinion is my responsibility as a mother to examine before blindly perpetuating these messages to my children. Things change, people become more educated and enlightened ie racism and sexism. Just because something was ok 50 years ago means nothing.

Lol, very good. You had me there.

BertrandRussell · 23/11/2017 18:34

"its not about unnecessary hand wringing, it’s more About being aware of the unhealthy normalisation of abuse."

Yep. This. We're building their minds and their belief systems. Why not use good materials to build with?

user1492877024 · 23/11/2017 18:58

I'm sorry, I really am. Imagine a group of hairy arsed builders reading the Daily Fail and discussing this over a large breakfast and pint mug of tea. What do you think their reaction would be? This sort of thing does more damage than good, it really does. It deflects from serious issues us women face on a daily basis.

BertrandRussell · 23/11/2017 19:18

"Imagine a group of hairy arsed builders reading the Daily Fail and discussing this over a large breakfast and pint mug of tea."

Are you suggesting that builders don't care about the world their children are growing up into? Or, if they don't, we should use them as a marker for the things we should care about ourselves?

FeelingAggrieved · 23/11/2017 19:20

Fucking hell.

Weebo · 23/11/2017 19:33

Manual labour is known to reverse the process of evolution in human males.

That's a fact, honest.

It also causes unusual hair growth in the buttocks area.

user1492877024 · 23/11/2017 19:36

You are very naive. I'm sure in your world the hairy arsed builders spend hours over breakfast discussing how wrong Sleeping Beauty is. As I say, this crap does more damage than good.

BertrandRussell · 23/11/2017 19:38

Well, feel free to use hairy arsed builders as your role models and the drivers of your thinking.......

Ttbb · 23/11/2017 19:39

Well if nothing else it's irrational-what about Snow White?

Ttbb · 23/11/2017 19:40

Would also like to point out that most schools don't have sleeping beauty (or any well known fairy tales) on their curriculum so surely the point is moot.

ThePinkOcelot · 23/11/2017 19:42

She’s a bloody idiot! They’re fairy tales!

BertrandRussell · 23/11/2017 19:56

You know, it's rude, shouty non-feminists like you that give non-feminists a bad name. No wonder women don't want to be non-feminists.......

Madreputa · 23/11/2017 20:01

This bitch is hilarious!

londonrach · 23/11/2017 20:03

I read this news report thinking she had a screw loose! Madness. Her poor son.

Unicorn81 · 23/11/2017 20:08

Cant read too much into it, look at the age the disney characters are, snow white was only 14 and the little mermaid 16, i dont think many kids think they are going to meet the man of their dreams and marry them at that age

Daffodil397 · 23/11/2017 20:13

Hmm I’m not sure I’d be banning them for my kids. At face value especially the originals can seem abusive and even terrifying.
But I did some studies looking into the value of oral fairy tales if they are not taken literally.
There is an argument that sleeping beauty represents the transition of people (both boys and girls) from childhood to adulthood. It can be a time of a lot of sleep and inactivity. At the end there is adulthood/parenthood and sometimes it can seem that these are thrust upon us without consent or before we are ready.
So I think the fairy tales have some value as long as there are lots of other messages about ‘this is not how actual relationships between men and women work’ etc

Icantreachthepretzels · 23/11/2017 20:15

Why not use good materials to build with?
As someone up thread pointed out, fairy tales are the basis of a lot of our culture, so removing them then removes people who have no access to them's ability to understand and interact with other works of art. It's like pulling the foundation out from under the house. In order for lots of other things to make sense, you have to understand fairy tales and their tropes - you are doing your children a cultural disservice to remove them entirely.

Hence we get updated, sanitised versions. So children can still learn basic story structure and the building blocks of our oral and literary heritage without having to read about Sleeping beauty being raped by the Prince.

However I think it is still very important to keep the older versions alive and kicking because there is a danger in removing them too. If we accept that old fairy stories are about teaching girls to love their husband even when he's abusive (Beauty and the Beast) or menstrual shame or the sin of vanity (the red shoes) or accepting unwanted advances (Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, The Frog Prince) or the importance of virginity (The Princess and the Pea) then these are part of the history of the oppression of women. To get rid of them is to erase what actually happened. And if all you're left with is Anna from Frozen and Rapunzel from tangled who are princesses fit for the 21st century who go out and get shit done, then people will start asking why did real women do 'so little' in the past? if we lose sight that women were actively encouraged to stay home and do as they were told, societal brainwashing to go along with economic and legal barriers that they faced, then people (men) will come to the conclusion that women not achieving much in history is because women are crap. Fairy tales in their original form are evidence of systemic oppression - like hell we should just give that away. But obviously they are no longer appropriate versions to read to children.

But they are good stories, and they are repeated and reflected throughout so much, that to lose them would mean losing a full understanding of loads of other bits of culture. We would be intellectually poorer for it.

So ladybird books and Disney sanitise them - make them more appropriate, making it clear that both Sleeping Beauty and Snow White were in love with the princes who kissed them - so these were welcome kisses. Belle isn't taken to the castle by her father against her will as the price for stealing a rose. She chooses to go, she chooses to stay and when it doesn't suit her she leaves, and she chooses to go back. Twice. Cinderella gets her much deserved happy ending - but nothing horrible happens to her family, there is no punishment for the women who weren't good and kind and amenable, they get to continue as they were before.

I really struggle to understand what is unfeminist about the golden age/renaissance era Disney films - unless it's that these women are traditionally feminine, and fall in love with men. But there is nothing wrong with them being traditionally feminine. Thinking that they need to be more assertive or -god I hate this word - 'feisty' just means that you don't think being gentle and kind and hardworking are good enough traits in themselves - that they would be more valuable if they demonstrated more 'masculine' qualities. And that is wrong. It makes me think of the To Kill a Mockingbird quote 'I wanted you to see what real courage is, instead of getting the idea that courage is a man with a gun in his hand. It's knowing that you're licked before you begin, but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what.'

Snow white runs away from home and builds a new life for herself.
Cinderella lives through the most awful bullying and poor treatment, suffers bereavements but refuses to be made a victim and insists on seeing the good in people.
Beauty has the courage to stand up to the Beast, and ask for what she wants (in every version I've ever read, she always gets to go home to her father)
The Little Mermaid takes a risk and goes for what she wants. In the original she doesn't get it, and that is a perfectly good warning to not give everything up for a man. In the Disney version, she fails and has to fight for what she wants but comes good in the end.
Sleeping Beauty is rather passive, but she is actually in the rare position of not really being the protagonist despite being the titular character - the fairies are the main characters - and they get shit done!
These are brave brave women, living in a time when there was very little opportunity for women. They should be celebrated for that! It's just we're so programmed to view bravery as man with a sword, or a daring rescue against a dragon, that we don't take time to appreciate the quiet courage and dignity of these women. That is something for us to overcome - not the Disney Princesses.

There are loads of positive feminist messages in the sanitised version of fairy tales, if you look for them - instead of just assuming pretty girl gets rescued by man - must be bad. And then the old versions are an important part of history, women's history in particular, as well as precious links to ancient oral traditions.

Talk of banning any book is never good. You can boycott it, you can protest about it, you can raise awareness of why its problematic - but for god's sake don't get rid of it. I might not like what Mein Kampf has to say, but I defend it's right to exist and other people's right to read it. And if that book of evil earns it's place in literary canon, then there is no excuse for getting rid of fairy tales.

Fekko · 23/11/2017 20:19

The original Grimm ones are, well grim. I had a book of Russian stories when I was a child and they were pretty unsettling too.

The ones where 'all you have to do us NOT do xyz' ones always have me the rage when I was little. You know, where you had to stay on the path through the woods, or never open the mysterious door, or not collect diamonds from the floor... you just knew the idiot would...

BertrandRussell · 23/11/2017 20:23

Why are you calling her names? Can't you disagree with her without calling her a bitch?

Bluelonerose · 23/11/2017 20:31

I don't think they should be banned at all but if you look at the different attitudes towards women in the older fairy tales compared to modern day i do think that's some of the earlier lessons we pick up may be skewered and I'm glad we have movies todaylike frozen and brave where they show the woman in the strong role for a change.

endehors · 23/11/2017 20:32

Some good points, pretzel.
The Little Mermaid takes a risk and goes for what she wants. In the original she doesn't get it, and that is a perfectly good warning to not give everything up for a man.

I liked the original more Shock I can only vaguely remember now, but how she refused to kill the prince to save herself, and in doing so became one of the Sisters of the Light (something like that) and went on to try to earn a soul. I should look it up really!

dameglittersparkles · 23/11/2017 20:40

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