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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to wonder if this mum calling for Sleeping Beauty to be banned is going a step too far, or not?

235 replies

ShatnersWig · 23/11/2017 12:30

Don't worry, I've not linked to the Daily Fail.

metro.co.uk/2017/11/23/mother-wants-sleeping-beauty-pulled-from-school-because-it-teaches-bad-lesson-about-consent-7101539/

Is this taking things a step too far or has she got a point?

OP posts:
GerdaLovesLili · 23/11/2017 15:01

For a feminist/adult perspective on fairytale themes you can't go far wrong with this: www.amazon.co.uk/Angela-Carters-Book-Fairy-Tales/dp/1844081737?tag=mumsnetforum-21

Awwlookatmybabyspider · 23/11/2017 15:03

Well she has a point, I suppose, but Where do we draw the line in the sand.
I mean Cinderella. Suffers emotional abuse at the hands of her Step sisters and step mother.
Rapunzel. Gets kidnapped and spends most of her life trapped in the tower being controlled.
Hansel and Gretel. Well the less said about that the better. Its bloody macarbe. I've seen less scarier horror movies and that's not even tongue in cheek
Snow white and the seven dwarfs. She's living with 7 fellas.
One for every night of the week.Hmm
Plus the dwarfs are all named after the effects of drugs.
Baby Bambi sees her mummy shot dead.

BertrandRussell · 23/11/2017 15:04

"Parenthood in 2017 just seems one long hard difficult drag."

I hate to tell you this, but I was thinking about this stuff before my first child was born in 1995. And people were taking it seriously in the 1970s. Because the messages we give our children about how life works are incredibly important.

OohMavis · 23/11/2017 15:07

I don't know what she's on about, really. Of course you can have a conversation with a 6yo.

"This is a fairytale, it isn't real and it never happened. In the book he was breaking a curse by kissing her, but really, we don't kiss anybody who hasn't said they'd like to be kissed."

BertrandRussell · 23/11/2017 15:12

"This is a fairytale, it isn't real and it never happened. In the book he was breaking a curse by kissing her, but really, we don't kiss anybody who hasn't said they'd like to be kissed." "

And you think that his happens in most cases?

Clandestino · 23/11/2017 15:17

I have to admit that I edited the Red Riding Hood so that the wolf is being operated on and then transferred to a ZOO where he gets food as he's too old to hunt wild animals.
But that's only because wolves are my favourite animals.
Have no problem with fairy tales otherwise. I focus more on teaching DD that fairy tales belong to the fairy land and in reality it wouldn't be suitable for the prince to kiss Sleeping Beauty without her consent.
Btw, how do we know the frog really consented to being kissed by the princess?

OohMavis · 23/11/2017 15:17

No, but I mean if you were concerned about Sleeping Beauty teaching your son to rape you'd at least start with that, wouldn't you?

But as it is I think most children just see it as the kiss of life, don't they?

Nikephorus · 23/11/2017 15:24

Thank god that The Tiger Who Came To Tea is merely a CF who cleans out their food entirely Grin

Icantreachthepretzels · 23/11/2017 15:24

My issue is exactly that though, and actually I think that the fact that Belle is hanging onto the hope that the beast will turn into the man she knows he is inside is worse.

But she isn't! She refuses to have anything to do with him whilst he is being mean and angry. She point blank refuses to go down to dinner even when he's screaming at her through the door. He makes an ultimatum that if she doesn't eat with him then she doesn't eat all - she ignores that totally and sneaks out to get something to eat. He has told her she can go anywhere in the castle except for the west wing, so where does she head as soon as she can? But when he yells at her she grabs her cloak and runs away without looking back. She has promised to stay with him and she breaks that promise without hesitation because she knows that his behaviour is not good enough and she doesn't have to put up with it.
She's well on her way home when she gets attacked by wolves - she fights the wolves herself, but she can't fend them all off, and that is when the beast turns up and saves her by killing the last few. He is injured and collapses, and Belle has a good think about just riding off and leaving him to die - but, in repayment of him saving her life, she saves his and takes him home. In repayment for that he gives her his library. Then they start to get along. She does nothing to try and make him change, she explicitly states that she has no interest in finding out if he's nice underneath ('The master isn't so bad once you get to know him.' 'I don't want to get to know him, I don't want anything to do with him.') she does not accept his bad behaviour. Once he starts behaving decently, she treats him in kind. Whether or not you think someone deserves a second chance is surely a personal matter. Yes she'd be well within her rights to continue refusing his attempts at friendship, but she is happy to give him another go. Her decision. That's an important message too - people make mistakes but can be redeemed/ forgiveness is an important part of being human, but you don't have to forgive them if you don't want to.

Don't conflate "fairy stories" with "Disney"
I don't. But if someone is talking about Gaston or Belle, then they are talking about the Disney version - and therefore that is the appropriate version to discuss. As a pp said, original fairy tales are important as so much of our culture, and other works of art are based on them so it is necessary to have an understanding of those in order to engage in other literature/films. But they come with loaded historical context.
Disney films have been sanitised and made happy in order to fit a more modern palette - but they do stand up to scrutiny!

Snow white runs away from home and finds herself a place to stay. She trades what skills she has (cooking and cleaning) in return for being allowed to live safely with the dwarves. She pays her way, earns her keep and looks after herself. The dwarves fail to save her on time and the prince didn't know that kissing her would wake her up - so that doesn't really count as a rescue. When she gets upset in the forest she gives herself a mental slap and forces herself forward into a new life. how is she a sap? That's the Disney version, but I don't remember the fairy tale version being massively different - other than that the queen tries to kill her a few more times.

Cinderella is a woman with no money, no friends and no respectable way out of the situation she finds herself in. Her choice is basically stay at home as a servant or leave and ...what? prostitution? But despite losing both her parents and being forced to live in poverty as a servant in her own home she remains kind and cheerful and loving. That is a massive triumph of the human spirit! In the Disney version - which doesn't stand up to scrutiny apparently - she doesn't want to go to the ball to fall in love and live happily ever after, she wants to go to a party and have a nice evening! She doesn't even realise that the Prince is the Prince, until the next morning. She isn't rescued by the Prince, she's rescued by her friends - that is her reward for having been good and kind to them, they help her out. She provides the solution to the smashed slipper, by handing over the second slipper. The message is if you are good and kind, no matter what circumstances you find yourself in, you will be rewarded - people will be happy to help you out and good things will happen. Sure it isn't necessarily a true to life message, but promoting kindness and goodness isn't a bad message.

Putting women down because they live in a time of limited opportunities, and only have traditionally feminine skills - which they make use of in order to keep themselves clothed/housed and fed - and calling them 'saps' is hardly a bullseye for the feminist cause either.

GoingCrazy21 · 23/11/2017 15:25

I think she's being a OTT but I suppose I see the point she is trying to make.

People seem to find things that will supposedly impact children (fairy tales etc) all the time, but I must say that as an adult I never ever think about fairy tales I was told as a child, nor do I have any beliefs that relate directly to them/seem to have stemmed from something fictional.

I guess I just think that as most children grow up they realise that stories are made up and don't take them as seriously as people like this woman seem to think.

OohMavis · 23/11/2017 15:29

Icantreachthepretzels, well said.

LorelaiVictoriaGilmore · 23/11/2017 15:30

Thank god that The Tiger Who Came To Tea is merely a CF who cleans out their food entirely.

But why does mummy have to explain to daddy why there's no food in the house? Why is it mummy's responsibility?

Why is daddy the one who 'solves' the problem by taking them to a cafe? Couldn't mummy have thought of that? Do they have a joint bank account? Could mummy have paid for supper?

Why is the only alcoholic drink in the house daddy's beer? Why when they go out to dinner does only daddy have an alcoholic drink?

Why do mummy and Sophie have to go to the shops to buy more food? What is daddy doing?

justforthisthread101 · 23/11/2017 15:32

One of mine picked Hansel and Gretel last night. It's a sanitised short version but still......I hadn't read it in years. They're 5 & 4 and thank god DC1 can't speed read and therefore didn't notice my editing.

@MrsTerryPratchett, I don't disagree with you. However, I think the fairy tales as a launch pad for the talk which does counteract unhelpful messaging is a good place to start. Which is why we talk about them. Quite a lot.

And the reason I know those talks work, is that I remember my mother delivering them, and then giving me this when I was a teenager. Yes, messaging has got worse and more gendered but I'm hoping I'll be able to have the same influence. And I still have the book to pass along....although DD2 is a bit cross I won't read it to her yet.

ZigZagandDustin · 23/11/2017 15:33

We need a full list of books that are not sexist for children. Can anyone think if any?? Maybe the ones that are stories about an individual child and place them only in an imaginary world rather than in society. A lot of stories are at best cliched and at worst deeply sexist.

Sazziepink · 23/11/2017 15:34

What a dick. So fed up of these parents reading to much into things and trying to get attention for it. Bore off.

BertrandRussell · 23/11/2017 15:36

"What a dick. So fed up of these parents reading to much into things and trying to get attention for it. Bore off"

Grin I'd rather overthink than underthink!

Nikephorus · 23/11/2017 15:39

Daddy should have stopped at the shops on his way home to pick up more food, put it away when he got home while cooking the tea and looking after Sophie while Mummy complained on Mumsnet about being expected to entertain unwanted visitors & why couldn't Daddy have come straight home when she first texted him to say there was a tiger in the house instead of asking her why she'd answered the door in the first place (well she thought it was the neighbour down the road finally collecting his Amazon delivery that had been in the hall for days).

OohMavis · 23/11/2017 15:41

Lorelai, Mummy made Tiger up so she had an excuse as to why she hadn't gone shopping yet. She's dreading him coming home, treading on eggshells around Daddy because he's clearly an abusive alcoholic Sad

The whole world is sexist. We can't go about book burning as a means of fixing it, we just need to talk to our kids.

MrsTerryPratchett · 23/11/2017 15:42

www.amightygirl.com/books For non-sexist books.

stargirl1701 · 23/11/2017 15:53

Neil Gaimin's The Sleeper & the Spindle is an interesting take on both Snow White and Sleeping Beauty without ever mentioning their names.

Well worth reading.

stargirl1701 · 23/11/2017 15:57

Bethan Woolvin does Rapunzel and Red Riding Hood where both characters save themselves.

MrMeSeeks · 23/11/2017 16:00

My god, yes too far.

endehors · 23/11/2017 16:07

Btw, how do we know the frog really consented to being kissed by the princess?

In some earlier versions she doesn't kiss the frog, she throws him! Grin The frog can usually speak too.

GerdaLovesLili · 23/11/2017 16:10

The Tiger Who Came to Tea is all about Mumy being thoroughly hacked off about Daddy going out every day and her being stuck at home doing the housework and cooking Daddy's bloody tea.

Mummy and Sophie drinnk and eat all the good stuff. Mummy especially drinks all of Daddy's beer. Then they think of an good story to tell Daddy when he gets home from work.

Mummy is too pie-eyed to make tea, or give Sophie her bath (no water in the taps), so they have to go to the cafe for dinner with Sophie in her pyjamas.

The tiger NEVER comes to tea again despite the extra-large can of cat food.

Traffig · 23/11/2017 16:18

Nice link to www.amightygirl.com Mrs. TP

The Red Shoes is Blackpool folk story warning locals not to go on Strictly Come DancingShock