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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

All we want for Christmas is an IMPEACHMENT! Trump con't

966 replies

AcrossthePond55 · 22/11/2017 18:00

Dear Father Christmas/Santa, Please grant our Christmas Wish. We have been very good this year. We promise not to say shit, cunt, or fuck too terribly much unless we're driven to it by Trump CuntFuckery. Oh shit, so much for that promise! Well, we'll TRY. Thank You, the MN Viper Freedom Squad

Old thread;

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3081957-The-zephyrs-of-change-Trump-continued?msgid=73548297

OP posts:
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31
TheClaws · 23/11/2017 08:15

Gosh. Shock

lionheart · 23/11/2017 08:18

In case we don't recall what Sessions can't recall.

www.wired.com/story/everything-jeff-sessions-did-not-recall-under-oath/?mbid=social_fb

lionheart · 23/11/2017 08:19

Seth is on tweet 48 and still going.

Minimammoth · 23/11/2017 08:29

I am an avid reader of the thread, keep up the good work.

badbadhusky · 23/11/2017 08:43

Seth is on tweet 48 and still going.

Crikey, thats 96 tweets in old money. You do start to wonder whether another pitlet may serve him better - though I ‘get’ Twitter’s reach.

badbadhusky · 23/11/2017 08:47

Outlet ^

lionheart · 23/11/2017 09:05

Hello Mini.

I think he 'rolls' (is that the correct term?) them from time to time so you can get the full run on one page.

lionheart · 23/11/2017 09:48

(THREAD) BREAKING: Allegations Trump spoke to Putin via speakerphone at the 2013 Miss Universe pageant, discussing both his plan to run for president and his desire to see Trump Tower Moscow built with Putin's blessing—implying a quid pro quo—are 90% confirmed. Please read/share.

WARNING/ This thread will be long, and there are a number of news items in it not yet reported by major media—though they will be—which will also make this thread confusing. "Confusing" is not "far-fetched." The facts in this thread have been drawn from public, reliable sources.

1/ The first thing to understand is that in January 2017, a celebrity friend of Trump made a startling accusation that never got picked up by the media—that Trump spoke with Putin via speakerphone at the 2013 Miss Universe pageant, others heard the call, and it was incriminating.

2/ On January 9, 2017, Tom Arnold tweeted to Trump, publicly, that "Chuck LaBella [NBC Talent Development Executive] was not only listening on speakerphone when Putin called (you lied to 60 Minutes, by the way) but he knows everything else, and just in case, Putin filmed it all."

3/ Subsequent tweets from Arnold referencing LaBella, in January and thereafter, confirmed that Arnold was speaking of the 2013 Miss Universe pageant. It should be emphasized that Trump has never acknowledged this phone call or this contact with Putin in any way, shape, or form.

4/ The next things one has to understand are: (a) the so-called "pee tape" does not involve any sexual behavior by Trump; (b) a tape "of a sexual nature" from this night has been confirmed by the CIA to the BBC (January 2017); (c) there are eight confirmed witnesses...

5/ ...who've been located by major media or intelligence agencies who can speak to events relevant to these allegations from the Steele Dossier (because they immediately preceded them); (d) this issue has nothing to do with sex—and everything to do with Trump being compromised...

6/ ...by a blackmail-enabling video that is confirmed to exist and—the evidence now suggests—a phone call that directly suggests a "quid pro quo" smoking gun connecting Trump's run for the presidency and his thirty-year desire to build Trump Tower Moscow; and (e) we now have...

7/ ...so much more intel about the events of November 9, 2013—and the wee hours of November 10, 2013—than has been reported in U.S. media that to relay it creates the sense I'm making it up. I am not. The media is behind on this story and you can either accept that fact or not.

8/ Here is the first thing we know that hasn't been widely reported: the roster of people Trump spent his self-described "lost weekend in Moscow with" (November 8 to the morning of November 10, 2013, during which time he held business meetings and attended a pageant and a party):

9/ Here are the people who were with Trump for all or some of his 2013 trip to Moscow:

Keith Schiller
Phil Ruffin
Emin Agalarov
Aras Agalarov
Chuck LaBella
Bob Van Ronkel
Yulya (Yulia) Alferova
Artem Klyushin
Herman Gref
Vladimir Kozhin
Alex Sapir
Rotem Rosen
Roustam Tariko

10/ Several other people had brief, consequential encounters with Trump—like Miss Hungary 2013, Kata Sarka—and their stories are part of this story as well. There are many fine articles about this weekend, and here's a particularly good one:

11/ Here's another good article about that weekend (note that Trump referring to this as a "weekend in Moscow" itself underscores a key lie that he's now telling about it, as once the Russia scandal began he changed it from a "weekend" to a one-day trip):

12/ And here's a third and final (for now) article about the events of that weekend in Moscow.

Public reporting gets us many of the names of the people in Trump's entourage, but several others were discovered by independent journalists. More on that now.

13/ First, we have to see Trump's November '13 entourage as "paired": Schiller the ever-present bodyguard, Ruffin the ever-present friend; Emin and Aras Agalarov, father and son; Yulya Alferova and Artem Kluyshin, husband and wife; Herman Gref and Vladimir Kozhin, Putin agents...

14/ ...Alex Sapir and Rotem Rosen, Trump's "Trump Soho" business partners; Chuck LaBella and Bob Van Ronkel, Hollywood fixers; Roustam Tariko, a vodka magnate who had a brief encounter with Trump, much like Kata Sarka (and she deserves to be added to this group of key figures).

15/ I'm going to start with LaBella and Ronkel because they get us directly to the Putin phone call and I'm not trying to stall here—just trying to explain things clearly—so to prove that I'll go right to them, then discuss the others. First, you have to know who these guys are.

16/ Ronkel (pictured here with Trump at the pageant) is an American expat who lived in Moscow for 10 years with one job: get Hollywood talent to Russia. Ronkel's specific talent is selling Hollywood stars on the idea that they can get rich by doing business in and with Russia.

17/ Ronkel is good at his job—which is why when you go to his site you're assaulted immediately by several photos of him with Vladimir Putin. Ronkel and Putin became friendly in part because Ronkel does a great service for Russia by bringing the world's biggest celebrities there.

18/ Here's is Ronkel's November 2013 list of accomplishments, taken directly from his website:

19/ At least three of those events—the bottom three—occurred at the 2013 Miss Universe pageant, which LaBella and Trump attended. It's not clear if Van Ronkel met with Seagal at the pageant or elsewhere—though in either case it should be noted that Seagal is Putin's good pal now.

20/ LaBella—who Arnold claims was with Trump the entirety of the pageant—was then an NBC Talent Development Executive. But beyond that, he'd been involved as producer in several Miss Universe pageants (2010, 2011, 2012) and a judge in others (particularly Miss Teen USA pageants).

21/ LaBella's role with respect to the 2013 Miss Universe pageant is unclear: IMDB doesn't list it at all for him, but other sites say he was a producer for that show as he was in 2012, 2011, and 2010. We do know he worked on five episodes of "The Apprentice" with Trump in 2013.

22/ Again, Tom Arnold has claimed—repeatedly—that LaBella was also tasked with being NBC's liaison to Trump during the pageant (NBC co-owned the pageant with Trump) and was therefore with him for any and all incriminating behavior that may have occurred during Trump's 2013 trip.

23/ Going back to Van Ronkel, it's important to understand not just that he met with LaBella in Moscow and was tasked with helping stars like Trump find business opportunities in Moscow—he also was a Putin favorite because he tried to make a glowing TV show about the KGB in 2001:

23 SOURCE/ A 2001 newsletter published by the Association of Former Intelligence Officers (AFIO) and available online.

24/ In 2015, Buzzfeed News published an article that spoke in some detail about Van Ronkel, and established that his job is not just to get stars like Trump to Russia, but to be certain they understand that doing so will lead to business deals with Russians and lots of money:

25/ So this is the part of the thread where I remind you that Van Ronkel—the Hollywood fixer who gets U.S. stars big-time Russian money—didn't just go to the 2013 Miss Universe pageant and hang out briefly with Trump, he had a meeting with him (and seems to have been a VIP, too):

26/ Here's a fuller shot of Van Ronkel with Trump at the 2013 Miss Universe pageant in Moscow (November 9, 2013):

27/ Did I mention that Van Ronkel's professional calling-card as a Moscow-based fixer is not just the ability to get U.S. celebrities like Trump big Russian money but also to connect them with Putin himself? Well, it is, as the Financial Times noted in a July 14, 2017 article:

28/ But FT goes even farther, noting Van Ronkel was at the VIP-only post-pageant party with Trump and "worked on the pageant" itself. So now we have a Putin pal who introduces celebrities like Trump to Putin and gets them Russian deals partying and working with Trump in Moscow.

29/ Here's where things get odd. To FT, Van Ronkel said Trump "looked bored" at the after-party. But he told VICE that Trump was "meeting anyone he could and trying to do business." The latter is much more consistent with Trump's stated intentions for the trip and his itinerary.

30/ Note also that Van Ronkel is a "longtime acquaintance"—per VICE—of Emin Agalarov: a constant presence with Trump in Moscow, the son of Putin's real estate developer Aras Agalarov, and the man set up the infamous June '16 Trump Tower meeting between Don Jr. and Kremlin agents.

31/ All this is context for Trump inviting Putin to the pageant and Putin cancelling his planned appearance there just hours before the event.

In his place he sent (a) a gift for Trump, and (b) Vladimir Kozhin—the man who gives out permits for new building projects in Moscow.

32/ Putin also had (c) Herman Gref, the CEO of Putin's bank (Sberbank), meet with Trump.

The three things you need to build Trump Tower Moscow are: a real estate developer (Aras, Trump's pageant partner, was Putin's), a permits man (Kozhin was Putin's), and money from a banker.

  1. To understand the entirety of how Trump acquired a deal to build Trump Tower Moscow at the 2013 Miss Universe pageant, see the thread below. Here I'm going to just review the basics—so we can talk about prostitutes and then come back to Vladimir Putin.

@SethAbramson
My longest-ever Russia thread—on the subject of Trump Tower Moscow, Putin, and the so-called "pee tape"—on one page: demu.gr/10029554787

34/ The upshot is this: Putin was supposed to meet Trump directly, but suddenly cancelled; he sent instead the people needed to complete a Trump Tower Moscow deal; Trump announced such a deal on Twitter the day after the pageant; Emin confirmed the "letter-of-intent" to Forbes.

35/ Ten days after the pageant, Sberbank publicly announced funding for the project. The letter-of-intent signed in Moscow the day of the pageant was "active" until Aras Agalarov declared it dead just this February—in the midst of the Flynn scandal, after Trump's inauguration.

36/ See Tweet #33 for links to the Sberbank announcement and Agalarov's announcement the deal was dead (but only as of this February). Here's a link to Emin's article with Forbes (in which he tried—transparently—to retract his confession about the letter):

37/ As you can see, given Trump's entourage (filled with Putin agents sent by Putin to help Trump, which they did); the presence of Van Ronkel (whose job is to help stars meet Putin); and Putin's own original plan to meet Trump in person, a speakerphone call is hardly surprising.

38/ What some may find harder to accept is that when Putin called—instead of showing up—Trump talked not just Trump Tower Moscow (which is unsurprising, as he was there to get that deal done and did) but also plans to run for the presidency: a conjunction that'd be incriminating.

39/ It'd be incriminating because the position of the Trump Organization, as laid out by Trump Jr. to investors in 2008, is that the only thing that makes investments in real estate in Russia dangerous rather than purely lucrative is that the deals can't be done without help.

40/ In the article below, we find Donald Trump Jr. underscoring that the Trump Organization wants to do deals in Russia—and has many Russian investors—but is concerned that, without government protection, deals can fall through or fail once begun:

41/ So Putin sending his permits man to deal with Trump, and discussing Trump Tower Moscow with Trump by phone, would be an imprimatur—a promise the deal had Putin's blessing and wouldn't be suddenly stolen away from Trump via state-sponsored graft or (as Don feared) legal fiat.

42/ Trump choosing that moment to tell Putin, and only him, he'd be running for the presidency—when that fact had never been uttered by Trump in the U.S., and wouldn't be for a year and a half—would create a prima facie case that Trump was leveraging one fact against the other.

43/ That is, it would suggest to U.S. voters that Trump used his run for the presidency as a chit—a valuable asset to be offered to Putin—to ensure Putin's assistance with the multi-billion-dollar Trump Tower Moscow deal, a deal Trump had been unsuccessfully seeking for 25 years.

44/ This is where two more members of the entourage—Yulya Alferova and Artem Klyushin—come into play.

Alferova and Klyushin appear to have been—per Alferova's LiveJournal account—at the Summer 2013 Miss USA pageant in Las Vegas to convince Trump to bring Miss Universe to Moscow.

45/ Alferova and Klyushin—then married—are friends of the Agalarovs, and were instrumental in making sure Trump came to Moscow. It's clear that money (a $20 million offer) lured Trump there, but also the promise of being able to discuss business deals and meet Russian oligarchs.

46/ As we can see in Putin's actions—he sent Trump his developer, permits man and banker—the plan was to get Trump to Moscow to seal a deal on Trump Tower Moscow. It was also to a) confirm Trump would deliver value to Putin in return by running for POTUS, and b) to get kompromat.

47/ It's through Alferova—who has an unusually chatty Twitter account—that we get proof that those who hung out with Trump in November almost immediately thereafter were in possession of the knowledge he'd be running for president (18 months before any of us Americans knew it):

48/ The date of that tweet is January 22, 2014. Not 2015—2014.

And it doesn't appear to be the only tweet of that character Alferova put out.

Remember: Arnold's claim is Trump was telling Russia he was running for president in November 2013. If he told Alferova, why not Putin?

49/ Arnold's claims—remember, he's a fellow celebrity, friend of Trump, and someone with substantial Hollywood and media connections—therefore check out as to every particular we can verify, including the circumstantial fact that everyone involved lied about that whole weekend.

50/ Emin gave Trump a fake alibi for the "pee tape" by pretending the allegation was from November 8th, not the 9th; Alferova pretended to The Guardian that she was just a blogger meeting Trump for the first time in Moscow, with no additional knowledge of his trip; Trump lied...

lionheart · 23/11/2017 09:48

50/ Emin gave Trump a fake alibi for the "pee tape" by pretending the allegation was from November 8th, not the 9th; Alferova pretended to The Guardian that she was just a blogger meeting Trump for the first time in Moscow, with no additional knowledge of his trip; Trump lied...

51/ ...about how long he was in Moscow, who he spent time with, whether he signed a letter-of-intent for Trump Tower Moscow there, whether he spoke to Putin, and, critically, whether he acted—as he claims—in a cautious manner to avoid producing kompromat:

52/ Put simply, a married man who claims—as Trump did during a January press conference—that he knew his Moscow hotel room was being video- and audio-recorded, and that he had to act cautiously as a result, does not invite a woman to come to his room for an adulterous affair.

53/ The other thing a man being "cautious" in that situation does not do is cavort with prostitutes, which credible evidence suggests Trump did on the night of November 9, 2013 (early morning hours of November 10)—and here's where Artem Klyushin comes into play in a very big way.

54/ A January 2017 Daily Caller article quotes a Trump advisor as saying Emin offered prostitutes to Trump at a November 9 meeting—believed to be the one seen atop this thread. It also says Schiller—or another guard—was posted at Trump's door all night.

55/ But when Schiller testified, he said it wasn't Emin but a "Russian associate" who made the offer—and based on the photo we have, this likely refers to Artem Klyushin, whose wife is pictured and whose Instagram confirms that he was with Trump that day.

56/ But the reason to suspect Klyushin isn't just that he's the only person in Trump's then-entourage who credibly fits the scenario—i.e., being Russian and present at that meeting—he also is associated with the man who runs the largest brothel in Moscow, Konstantin Rykov.

57/ And as young journalist Scott Stedman (@scottmstedman) has recently written about, Rykov credibly (for reasons I'll discuss) claimed right after the election to have been part of a five-year plot to help Trump run for and then win the presidency.

58/ Rykov is a member of Putin's political party who was in the Duma and is now called the Kremlin's top online propagandist. He also founded "Dosug," the largest dark-net brothel in Moscow. And he has posted pictures of "secret meetings" related to geopolitics with Klyushin.

  1. The two men regularly correspond over Twitter, and the secret meeting occurred as Rykov was writing on FB "maybe it's time to help out the old brigand [Trump]." Tellingly, Rykov had somehow been ready to publish a pro-Trump endorsement just days after Trump announced in 2015.

  2. Rykov's lightning-fast publication of a Trump endorsement—72 hours post-Trump's surprise announcement—bolsters the idea he long ago knew (via Klyushin or his wife) Trump was running, and that he had, as he now says, been preparing to help Trump win the presidency since 2012.

61/ So while we don't—yet—have 100% conclusive proof, every piece of evidence now available says (a) yes, Trump established a Trump Tower Moscow/presidential run quid pro quo with Putin in Moscow in November 2013, and (b) yes, he was lured to Moscow as part of a kompromat plot.

62/ We know a Trump Tower Moscow letter-of-intent was signed, then lied about; we know Trump and his team tried to convince us his only play for Trump Tower Moscow was a failed 2015 bid; we know Russians knew before we did that Trump was running for POTUS; we know Trump wanted...

63/ ...to meet Putin at the 2013 pageant, and surrounded himself with every resource he could to make it happen telephonically, even as Putin was sending him every imaginable resource needed to get a Trump Tower Moscow deal done; we know a one-time Trump friend confirms all this.

64/ We know that as you go down to a finer level of granularity—which as a former criminal investigator/attorney I'm trained to do—everything still checks out: everyone is lying about what you'd expect; has access to the resources they needed; published corroborating evidence.

65/ And then there are facts so seemingly small or esoteric I avoid putting them in threads, but want to here: Scott Stedman discovered Klyushin was at a 2015 Trump rally; Ike Kaveladze (cf. 2016 Trump Tower meetup) appears to have helped the Kremlin lure Trump to Moscow in 2013.

66/ Every hour, new facts are being added to this fact-pattern—and all of them fit the narrative the evidence confirmed so far seems to establish and establish clearly. Here's Stedman's article on Ike Kaveladze, for example, published just this evening:

67/ If Kaveladze was working to lure Trump to Moscow in 2013, then shows up in 2016 helping the Kremlin aid Trump's candidacy, that's telling; if Rykov says in November 2016 he and Klyushin have been trying to help Trump for years, and Klyushin is at a 2015 rally, that's telling.

68/ I understand and embrace 100% the question you're asking now: why haven't I seen this in major media? The answer is not complicated: right now even major media's "investigative" reporting is just waiting for leaks from the highly politicized Congressional probes or Mueller.

69/ I personally have been contacted by some of the largest print/TV outlets in the country, which—to their credit—are just now trying to branch out, as to the Trump-Russia probe, into the investigative reporting certain independent journalists have been doing on this since 2016.

70/ But where we are today is that network/cable TV outlets, news websites, and newspapers are either a) waiting for politicians to issue selective leaks from a deliberately crappy investigation, or b) waiting for crappy leaks from a deliberate and professional FBI investigation.

71/ The result is major media is months behind the actual state of this investigation—the state independent journalists with backgrounds in the law and/or journalism have brought it to—and these journalists are sourcing their work and checking it daily against the work of others.

72/ I hope you'll read the links in this thread, and the links in the threads I've linked to in this thread, and the links on smaller and/or more esoteric items that I've linked to on this feed at various points. And I hope you'll read this key article:

73/ I hope you'll check out Luke Harding's new book—which establishes beyond doubt just how long the KGB (now FSB) has been working on Trump, and how long he's been courting Russian investors and business—as well as my own original reporting on this topic.

74/ And I hope you'll consider that conspiracy theories are deeply stupid—but criminal conspiracies are a real thing that people like me work on (as attorneys or investigators) and a particularly dumb criminal conspiracy, like this one, at first looks like mere conspiracy theory.

75/ All that matters is whether the evidence compiled to make a case checks out. Nothing else matters—including your subjective opinion of what's plausible, what certain people "would do," or what seems "credible." People surprise you—and Trump is worse than you understand. {end}

PS/ Yes—if the final 10% of this is confirmed, this IS a smoking gun and grounds for impeachment.

It'd mean the President of the United States is compromised by a foreign power—suffering under "leverages of pressure" as the CIA said long ago (see below).

cozietoesie · 23/11/2017 10:31

Oh my. Thanks, lion.

Roussette · 23/11/2017 11:59

Thanks lion

cozietoesie · 23/11/2017 17:21

A Beast piece. (Best to read the whole thing.)

Don't let the circus distract you

lionheart · 23/11/2017 21:16

Yes, to that Beast piece. This version of Republicanism is shameless and pernicious and will cause lasting damage to lives and to democracy while we are debating Trump's stupid tweets and are caught up in the inevitable outrage which follows him and his minions.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 23/11/2017 21:34
Smile

A Split From Trump Indicates That Flynn Is Moving to Cooperate With Mueller

<a class="break-all" href="https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/23/us/politics/flynn-mueller-russia-trump.html?referer=t.co/vis7KpHJOi?amp=1" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/23/us/politics/flynn-mueller-russia-trump.html?referer=t.co/vis7KpHJOi?amp=1

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 23/11/2017 21:34

Happy thanksgiving!

cozietoesie · 23/11/2017 21:48

“ “You know, the coast guard, always respected, but if you were looking at it as a brand, there’s no brand that went up more than the coast guard, with what happened in Texas.”

( He believes that he acquired F 35s for a massive discount.)

lionheart · 23/11/2017 21:53

Hurray!

cozietoesie · 23/11/2017 21:56

Well who would you believe? Ole Craggy Face Or Mr Mustachio?

AcrossthePond55 · 23/11/2017 21:57

Thanks Pain. Same to you. 🦃

OP posts:
BiglyBadgers · 23/11/2017 22:01

Secret place marking...shhh..you can't see me...I am only here to talk about Russian adoptions...

cozietoesie · 23/11/2017 22:03
Grin
OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 23/11/2017 22:07

Do you think the Flynn news was deliberately published on thanksgiving? I’d like to think so.

Apologies if this has already been posted

Kyle Griffin
@kylegriffin1
Several of Trump’s top aides — including Steve Bannon and Sebastian Gorka — have failed to file legally required financial reports after they were dismissed this summer, according to the White House.

amp.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article186003568.html

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 23/11/2017 22:21

Trump won't pay for Mike Flynn's legal bills: Official

www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/trump-wont-pay-for-mike-flynn-legal-bills/

PerkingFaintly · 23/11/2017 22:36

I will catch up with all this, honest. Just... I need my brain back for a few days.