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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

At a 19yr Old Transwoman being elected a Labour woman’s officer

476 replies

bambambini · 20/11/2017 08:48

Seems the old WO stepped down after alleged bullying and accusation of transphobia. The new WO is a 19 yr old Transwoman - i think who made many of The allegations against the previous WO.

What experience has a 19 yr old TW got to hold this post - weirder than weird.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-teenager-lily-madigan-voted-in-as-a-labour-women-s-officer-mwchkhzq8

OP posts:
Terrylene · 21/11/2017 17:59

I have noticed for a while that people do seem to desperately want to belong to something where there a set rules. That they must to x and y and not do z and not eat whatever. Or wearing things that are symbolic. This is very different to the 70s when rules were being relaxed and nuns stopped wearing habits etc.

I particularly noticed it with religion where the churches that like to ban things like Harry Potter seem to have a good following despite the strange sermons, yet my own liberal church where you are supposed to do your own thinking seems to have pretty much liberalled itself out of existence.

Now there seem to be many non religious ways of boxing yourself in with a set of rules with all the zeal of religions.

(This is just idle observation, no intellectual rigour, I'm afraid).

Bucketsandspoons · 21/11/2017 18:01

Redtoothbrush that should be an article in the national press. Brilliant.

Please could you explain more about the Orwell comparison?

Terrylene · 21/11/2017 18:24

Transwomen are women.
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. From 1984.

Betty184 · 21/11/2017 18:26

Lots of people have very poor judgement when they're in their teens. Lots of people put things on social media that they are not proud of later on

That's the thing though. I know teenage girls can be immature, show poor judgement and put things on the internet that they are not proud of later on. But how many of them joke about being a rapist in training (or a 'sex offender in training' if they don't have a penis)??? Most (if not) all teenage girls will have been on the receiving end of unwanted sexual attention, from cat-calling and groping through to rape in some cases.

Transactivists say that transwomen have always been female since birth and haven't had male socialisation or male privilege. But how is this possible? The behaviour of many transactivists suggests they have no empathy for or of understanding of women's perspective at all.

lucydogz · 21/11/2017 18:28

'I saw, in fact, history being written not in terms of what happened but in terms of what ought to have happened according to various 'party lines'.
From Looking Back on the Spanish War by Orwell. Even then the media was bent according to the viewpoint of the observer.

AdultHumanFemale · 21/11/2017 18:30

Hurrah for RedToothbrush, great analysis. I recognise this from a wasted couple of years with a cultish Christian group in my teens, and my trans nephew is in a very similar place in transland. It is so strong and persuasive, impenetrable.

Boulshired · 21/11/2017 18:31

The age is a massive thing for me, not every biological woman has children or periods but working in recruitment most women after the age of 25 are treated as if they have a functioning womb and are going to procreate at any moment.

BahHumbygge · 21/11/2017 18:35

'On the contrary,' he said, 'you have not controlled it. That is what has brought you here. You are here because you have failed in humility, in self-discipline. You would not make the act of submission which is the price of sanity. You preferred to be a lunatic, a minority of one. Only the disciplined mind can see reality, Winston. You believe that reality is something objective, external, existing in its own right. You also believe that the nature of reality is self-evident. When you delude yourself into thinking that you see something, you assume that everyone else sees the same thing as you. But I tell you, Winston, that reality is not external. Reality exists in the human mind, and nowhere else. Not in the individual mind, which can make mistakes, and in any case soon perishes: only in the mind of the Party, which is collective and immortal. Whatever the Party holds to be the truth, is truth. It is impossible to see reality except by looking through the eyes of the Party. That is the fact that you have got to relearn, Winston. It needs an act of self-destruction, an effort of the will. You must humble yourself before you can become sane.'

Holy fuck, more 1984. Was Orwell Nostradamus?

GardenGeek · 21/11/2017 18:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ArcheryAnnie · 21/11/2017 18:44

Lots of people have very poor judgement when they're in their teens. Lots of people put things on social media that they are not proud of later on.

This is true, but there's two things that make Madigan's case different.

The first is - how many women, in their "things I am ashamed of putting on the internet when I was a stupid teenager" file, would have "I made jokes about being a paedophile-in-training" on that list? Not many, and if there were any at all, they would never ever be allowed to forget it. Their fitness as women, as potential mothers, their "unnaturalness" - all these things of what women are "supposed" to be, particularly in relation to hypothetical children, would be dragged out above and beyond the basic level of how vile it is to pretend to be "Savilles apprentice". None of this has happened to Madigan from the usual crowd (only from us), and it isn't hard to see why. Madigan gets a pass on this because Madigan is allowed to pick and choose the "good" bits of presenting as female.

Madigan hasn't shown any remorse at all for all those vile things posted online as a stupid teenager. Far from it - Madigan has lied, and presented themselves as the victim, and said they didn't do it when they clearly did. You can't be redeemed from a stupid thing if you won't even admit that the stupid thing was yours.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 21/11/2017 19:01

Possibly one of the most insightful posts I've ever read RedToothBrush Flowers

BeyondAssignation · 21/11/2017 19:06

👏 red

IsaSchmisa · 21/11/2017 19:16

Yy picking oakem. And the fact that some women don't have children certainly doesn't protect them from being discriminated against due to assumed fertility. Any more than women who don't menstruate can opt out of sexist assumptions about being moody, less competent etc because it's the wrong time of the month.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 21/11/2017 19:27

You believe that reality is something objective, external, existing in its own right. You also believe that the nature of reality is self-evident. When you delude yourself into thinking that you see something, you assume that everyone else sees the same thing as you. But I tell you, Winston, that reality is not external. Reality exists in the human mind, and nowhere else

Bloody hell! Shock I'm going to need to invest in one of those "1984 is not a manual" t-shirts...

Bucketsandspoons · 21/11/2017 19:27

Terry thank you. Flowers

thecatfromjapan · 21/11/2017 20:04

That's an amazingly thoughtful post, RedToothBrush.

RedToothBrush · 21/11/2017 20:20

Please could you explain more about the Orwell comparison?

I'll try and do this for anyone who hasn't ever read 1984 (I don't find it an easy read as the whole point is fucking with your head, but its something you should try and read or at least be aware of). I hope this does it justice and gets to the point, without going on too much.

In 1984, Orwell talks about the concept of "Doublethink". Here's a paragraph from the book:

The keyword here is blackwhite. Like so many Newspeak words, this word has two mutually contradictory meanings. Applied to an opponent, it means the habit of impudently claiming that black is white, in contradiction of the plain facts. Applied to a Party member, it means a loyal willingness to say that black is white when Party discipline demands this. But it means also the ability to believe that black is white, and more, to know that black is white, and to forget that one has ever believed the contrary. This demands a continuous alteration of the past, made possible by the system of thought which really embraces all the rest, and which is known in Newspeak as doublethink. Doublethink is basically the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.
— Part II, Chapter IX– The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism

(The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism is a fictional banned book in 1984, which was supposedly 'written' by the enemy of the Authoritarian State).

An expansion on that:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink
Doublethink is the act of simultaneously accepting two mutually contradictory beliefs as correct, often in distinct social contexts. Doublethink is related to, but differs from, hypocrisy and neutrality. Also related is cognitive dissonance, in which contradictory beliefs cause conflict in one's mind. Doublethink is notable due to a lack of cognitive dissonance—thus the person is completely unaware of any conflict or contradiction.

Eg: Being trans when it suits but being woman when it suits, without any notion or awareness that this doesn't have an consistency or contradiction with the concept of 'transwomen are women'.

Orwell's point in 1984 was a warning about the manipulation of the public by the State and the horror of totalitarianism which stops people being free and thinking for themselves.

It plays on the concept that the truth is the casualty of propaganda and that people can be manipulated more easily than they think - often without even realising they are - and even if they are aware of it, they go along with it because they are afraid or because its just easier to just play along than challenge what they know to be wrong because of social pressure.

Its worth noting, that propaganda itself as a tool is neither a bad or a good thing. It is a neutral thing - which people often forget. Sometimes it can be used positively and for good. It is often used when the underlying facts are not persuading people to follow certain 'preferred' patterns of behaviour by themselves. (Health promotion programmes are a good example. Advertising is another).

But its power to persuade means it is often used for negative reasons. It can be used to deliberately distort reality, and to confuse and mislead. Extensive and widespread use of propaganda in a narrow area, should ring alarm bells and make you question why it is being used that much. As I say, its often because the argument that people are trying to make doesn't stand up to scrutiny without the use of that propaganda.

Orwell was not a fortune teller by any means. He just wrote about something which has gone on since society was civilised, in a way that was more accessible and aimed at a wider (and perhaps more receptive) audience than the past had allowed due to mass education and greater political awareness amongst the public as a whole. Prior to the early twentieth century, politics was a thing that only the elite were involved in and wasn't for the working classes who merely just did as they were told.

I find the wiki on propaganda techniques a really good crash course in helping to spot them:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_techniques

To put it at its most blunt, propaganda is a core tool used to brainwashing people in cults. And in relation to trans activism, you can see a lot of it.

FWIW, I want to make another point here: not all trans people are trans activists by any means. There are many trans people are trying to make the case for a shared interest and reason for others to support their cause without resorting to methods which suppress free debate and discussion in this way.

In my opinion I think they are unfortunately being undermined because of the type of politics trans activists are they are pursuing. I think this needs to be stressed, and I want to make a clear distinction between trans people and trans activists. (I appreciate this is a generalisation here as there are trans people who are activists who are trying to further their cause in a way that is not authoritarian. The problem is they are largely being drowned out and side-lined precisely because they don't act in this way, and the term trans activist seems to be applied mostly to the loud mouths rather than 'softer' more liberal minded campaigners).

Teaformeplease · 21/11/2017 20:22

I've been reading all this and can't stop thinking about it. This is just a plot for the next Handmaid's Tale right?
I feel that women's rights are in great danger here. I don't want my daughter to have to share changing rooms and toilets with boys who think they might be girls maybe. I don't want her to think that she is somehow an inferior type of woman because she doesn't have a penis (a sentence I never thought I'd write). I don't want her rights ( or mine, or any other woman's) to a safe space to be eroded. This has been a real eye opener for me.
Thanks to all the very eloquent posters and the interesting links to articles.

Vitalogy · 21/11/2017 20:38

1984 film/trailer.

Terrylene · 21/11/2017 20:40

Yes, me too. I always thought there was something fundamentally not quite right about what I was hearing on the radio etc about transgender issues. However, reading about critical thinking and watching the arguments being picked apart has really made me think about things. It was not that I was stupid, or ignorant, but I did not have the tools to work through the arguments.

I too want my daughters to have the space to believe in themselves and keep their rights.

RedToothBrush · 21/11/2017 20:42

P.S. Never let ANYONE tell you media studies is a pointless subject to study.

Its not.

Datun · 21/11/2017 20:45

RedToothbrush

That was a stunning post. Both of them.

People have talked about transactivism as a cult. Because it genuinely does bear all the hallmarks.

The doublethink and the newspeak. The ostracising and vilification of ex-cult members (James Caspian been being told he couldn’t research people who detransition because it wasn’t politically correct).

The black is white thing too.

Bloody hell. You’re definitely trans when it comes to abuse and discrimination, but you’re not trans when it comes to accessing women only spaces, you’re women.

You’re trans when people kill trans people, but not when trans people kill. How many times have I heard, well they are not really trans.

The determination to not have any questioning #NoDebate.

The brainwashing and recruitment of handmaidens. Canon fodder. I’ve seen so many women saying they used to be allies, but then they just reached peak trans. But it was incredibly difficult to let go. To leave.

Whoever said that was an article that should be published, was profoundly correct.

I don’t know if you are a writer or a journalist. But please, please send that piece to every single news outlet you can find.

Start with Fairplay for Women. They have journalistic relationships.

And Transgendertrend. Who are deeply concerned about the propaganda being sent to schools. About the one eyed promotion of transgenderism to school children.

The information being disseminated is not about how to handle bullying and be aware. It is actively promoting the cult. Children who wouldn’t have given it a second thought are coming home and asking whether or not they are transgender.

Profoundly worrying.

RedToothBrush · 21/11/2017 21:10

Actually its not that transgenderism that is being talked about in school that I find the big issue. Done in the right way, I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with it.

Its the fact that gender stereotyping isn't. And schools are no doing enough to examine their role in that and how they promote those stereotypes. And the fact that these stereotypes have been heightened and that advertisers have sought to exploit them and polarise them for financial gain.

I think fundamentally a lot of the debate is because the focus is placed on the wrong thing, and the questions that then lead from that produce answers that don't solve the problem of people trying to form an identity.

Like so many political issues, its about the ability (or should I say inability) to ask the right question, not make assumptions which then lead to asking the wrong questions that produce results that don't tackle the core issue you have a problem with.

You can not make good decisions if you are not well informed and have the whole picture.

Datun · 21/11/2017 21:29

Actually its not that transgenderism that is being talked about in school that I find the big issue. Done in the right way, I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with it.

I agree. But it isn’t.

Girls are being painted as being responsible for male violence.

“Girls are the pupils who face an epidemic of sexual harassment and abuse in UK schools today, but this teaching guide takes away their most basic safeguarding protections and disempowers girls further through the deception, psychological manipulation and gas-lighting techniques most typically used by abusers.”

www.transgendertrend.com/?s=Cps&submit=Search

Like so many political issues, its about the ability (or should I say inability) to ask the right question

In Scotland, schools are being told that not only can they not ask questions, if parents ask questions social services are a phone call away.

“Teachers are advised not to ‘disclose information to parents or carers without the young person’s permission”

“If a parent is ‘struggling to come to terms with their child’s identity’ teachers are advised that it ‘may be useful to approach the local authority’”

I am not exaggerating.