To worry that this was sexual assault/harassment? Or at least a violation of boundaries?

[user1496156134]

This may be long, so bear with me.
I began dating someone in early July and we met up about once a week or so. I had known them for several years prior to this. We started doing sexual things (not actual intercourse but other stuff) maybe 3ish weeks into the relationship. This was all fine: comfortable and consensual.
Then in early August he stayed over and we decided to have sex. We changed our minds and did 'other stuff' instead although he was quite persistent in trying to convince me to have sex. He stayed over (i.e. we slept in the same bed) and we both woke up at about 4am. I don't know whether we both naturally woke (e.g. in response to a noise outside or something). Regardless, he started moving his hand down into my underwear. I moved his hand away but didn't tell him no. He repeated this 3-4 times, with me moving his hand away each time, until I said "I'm tired" and we went to sleep. At the time I didn't think much of it, just that it was annoying/uncomfortable, but now when I think of it I feel sick to my stomach about the fact that I just went to sleep afterwards with him still there.

In early September, we went to a friend's party. We were both very drunk (him more than me) as were many others. When we went into the front room to lie down (friend had offered their front room for all those wanting to stay overnight as it was quite late, so there were matresses/futons set up) I was feeling very lightheaded and tired due to drink. He started to grope me a bit and then the whole thing happened again (hand moving into underwear several times, me moving it away but not saying no, etc.). I remember drunkenly asking him something like "Why do you keep doing that?". I don't remember what/if he answered. Eventually other friends came into the room and he left and I went to sleep. At the time I remember feeling very anxious and like I should leave the room and find my friends, but I was so tired that I was close to passing out.

I don't know how I feel about this all. I don't whether I'm just overreacting, or what I'm supposed to think.

Have you broken up with him? I would - it's happened twice now that he's not respected your boundaries (at the least, I don't know what this would be legally) and I'd say that's a bad sign.

Are you still seeing this guy? He doesn't sound great but I would hesitate to call it sexual assault.

My what I mean is (without going into graphic detail!) that it could be seen as the equivalent of "up a bit, left a bit, oh my god, there, there...." see what I mean? Whereas a "no" is unequivocal.

I wouldn't say this was sexual assault, but to be clear you don't have to say the word 'NO' for it to be obvious you don't want sexual advances. 'I'm tired', body language and moving hands away do all count. I think most people are clear on that. Break up with him, he's a sex pest.

I agree that there are other ways of implying no, in case anyone wonders. But any way has to be clear if you're in a situation where you've been having consensual sexual contact.
And I should say that I'm not implying for a second that someone who can't say no because they've frozen isn't assaulted - this is a totally different situation because the OP obviously could and did communicate, just not clearly.
(And I know I'm probably not getting my point across at all clearly - story of my life)

Sorry, I should have mentioned: we have broken up (a couple of weeks ago).
My uncertainty around what happened was why I started the thread in the first place. As I said, I didn't know if this was assault or not and I wouldn't report it as such, but I also wasn't sure if it was harassment or violation of boundaries, or just something a bit off.
My understanding of consent has always been that you ask the other person "Is this okay?" or something similar and proceed only if the answer is a yes. This is why I said the first few experiences were fine, because this happened, hence why the latter two experiences felt so uncomfortable.
My anxiety over all this is more a fear of what could have happened as well as what did, if that makes sense. What if I had been even drunker/passed out with him in the room?
Nikephorus: when I say I moved his hand away, I mean that I removed it from my underwear and away from my body, not to another place. The first time, as you say, I could probably have said no. The second time however I was quite drunk and not entirely clear in what was going on. I'm quite upset by your accusation that I'm 'jumping on a bandwagon to be trendy' when all I'm doing is asking questions and trying to get my head around this. What an unnecessary thing to say.

Maybe but probably not. I would have interpreted the hand moving as 'I don't want sex' as opposed to 'don't touch me there'. It was twatish to persist for so long though.

@Nikephorus The OP says she moved his hand away. That doesn't sound like she was just adjusting what he was doing, and she did it more than once. That seems a pretty clear 'no' to me. And then he did the same on another occasion?

It's things like this that mean that real cases of assault don't get the focus they deserve.

So someone continuing to touch you after you've indicated that you would like them to stop more than once is fine if you happen to have willingly shared a bed with them? I'm assuming you wouldn't say the above if this was not someone she already had a relationship with.

@Nikephorus The OP says she moved his hand away. That doesn't sound like she was just adjusting what he was doing, and she did it more than once. That seems a pretty clear 'no' to me. And then he did the same on another occasion?

Thank you, mirime: this sums up my feelings towards the whole thing but you've said it better than I could.

I agree it's a no, my point is that not everyone would see it as a no and that if it came down to a legal case it could be claimed that he didn't realise she wasn't in full agreement because she didn't say no or clearly stop him and had previously consented to similar behaviour . If you've previously slept with them / had some sort of intimate contact then they're more likely to be given the benefit of the doubt than if not. I'm not excusing his behaviour - he sounds truly delightful - or anyone else's in this situation but I'm trying to point out that if you're capable of saying no (or making it so remarkably obvious in another way) then you need to for your own sake.
And OP, I'm not saying that you specifically are jumping on a bandwagon but there have been so many cases recently of people, mainly but no just so-called celebrities, who are saying that they've experienced unwanted sexual behaviour of various kinds in the past and it's got to a point where it seems as if it's trendy to be reporting it - the latest celebrity fashion to revive a flagging career or get some free publicity. And to me that's downright offensive to the everyday women (and men) who have genuinely been seriously assaulted.

"It's things like this that mean that real cases of assault don't get the focus they deserve. Everyone seems to be jumping on the bandwagon to be trendy while the real victims get ignored again."

Yes OP, you're contributing to real victims being ignored. There was no foreplay going on when she moved his hand away. It seems black and white to me - definitely not the "enthusiastic consent" men should count as their benchmark.

"but there have been so many cases recently of people, mainly but no just so-called celebrities, who are saying that they've experienced unwanted sexual behaviour of various kinds in the past and it's got to a point where it seems as if it's trendy to be reporting it - the latest celebrity fashion to revive a flagging career or get some free publicity."

Who are you even thinking of here? I can't think of a single example but I am happy to be enlightened as to the many people accusing others to further their careers.

I will never understand why people can’t see the irony in ‘minimises REAL abuse’ while minimising something someone considers abuse. And because it’s now ‘trendy’? Wtf?

It sounds like persistent unwanted sexual contact to me, which is definitely within the boundaries of ‘sexual assault’. And I’m sorry OP. I’m glad you’re away from him now and I hope you’re ok.

Thank you @Pumperthepumper

I do agree with nike- moving his hand could have been perceived a few different ways, especially if he was drunk. He sounds like a persistant twat, but I really couldn't consider this assault.
As nike says, if you are having sexual relations with someone and are in a relationship then you need to be clear when you are saying no.. I certainly don't ask my partner every time I touch him but the first time yes, I would have gauged his reaction before continuing. A simple no should have done the trick, obviously if he didn't stop at that point then yes, that would be assault.

No sorry, if you have been "doing other stuff" and sharing a bed then he is trying it on to have full sex. You do say in your post that you agreed to sex then changed your mind. I suspect he was "chancing his luck".

I don’t think it’s so much that he tried to go further - it’s that on both occaisions the OP had to push him away four times before he stopped.

Can I ask though - why do you want to be in a relationship that doesn’t involve sex? Why not just be friends? Have you discussed with him that all you’re up for is snogging and a wee bit of pre-arranged groping? It sounds like you’re on quite different pages.

Sorry, I’ve just seen downthread that you’ve broken it off with him.

In my book that certainly was not assault. And granted I haven’t had too mad a love life, but asking consent at each stage? Is that how it works now? Personally I’d find that a real turn off, having to go through a checklist each time, or even the first time, but perhaps that’s the norm now?

Yes but OP states they were in bed doing sexual stuff but not intercourse. Sorry but most would consider that foreplay, he tried to take it further that's all. She admits she did agree to intercourse at one point then changed her mind, he tried to persuade her to change it again.

OP just to add I think a lot of people would assume consent has already been given if you are already in bed doing "sexual stuff".

As I said, the first time was after the 'sexual stuff': we had both been asleep for several hours. I appreciate that this could still be misconstrued. It was mainly the second situation that I was concerned about, as I was so drunk and there was no foreplay of any kind.

With regards to 'having to ask each time': I didn't want to add this part as it's a massive drip feed (so for that, I'm sorry) but I'm a virgin. Hence why it was necessary to kind of 'establish' things at each new stage. To be perfectly honest even if that wasn't the case, I feel like drunkeness adds another layer of uncertainty to the situation as even if one does consent, it might not be clear if they're actually 'able' to if you see what I mean.

I understand that some of this is due to my inexperience but @AmeliaFlashtart: you said people would assume that I had given consent as I was already in bed with him doing things (obviously doesn't apply to the second instance). I thought consent was more ongoing? Can't people change their minds? Does consent from one sexual act really extend to hours/days/weeks later?