To worry that this was sexual assault/harassment? Or at least a violation of boundaries?

[user1496156134]

This may be long, so bear with me.
I began dating someone in early July and we met up about once a week or so. I had known them for several years prior to this. We started doing sexual things (not actual intercourse but other stuff) maybe 3ish weeks into the relationship. This was all fine: comfortable and consensual.
Then in early August he stayed over and we decided to have sex. We changed our minds and did 'other stuff' instead although he was quite persistent in trying to convince me to have sex. He stayed over (i.e. we slept in the same bed) and we both woke up at about 4am. I don't know whether we both naturally woke (e.g. in response to a noise outside or something). Regardless, he started moving his hand down into my underwear. I moved his hand away but didn't tell him no. He repeated this 3-4 times, with me moving his hand away each time, until I said "I'm tired" and we went to sleep. At the time I didn't think much of it, just that it was annoying/uncomfortable, but now when I think of it I feel sick to my stomach about the fact that I just went to sleep afterwards with him still there.

In early September, we went to a friend's party. We were both very drunk (him more than me) as were many others. When we went into the front room to lie down (friend had offered their front room for all those wanting to stay overnight as it was quite late, so there were matresses/futons set up) I was feeling very lightheaded and tired due to drink. He started to grope me a bit and then the whole thing happened again (hand moving into underwear several times, me moving it away but not saying no, etc.). I remember drunkenly asking him something like "Why do you keep doing that?". I don't remember what/if he answered. Eventually other friends came into the room and he left and I went to sleep. At the time I remember feeling very anxious and like I should leave the room and find my friends, but I was so tired that I was close to passing out.

I don't know how I feel about this all. I don't whether I'm just overreacting, or what I'm supposed to think.

OP you have been drip feeding. Last poster is spot on.

Mind you, maybe people are jumping on a bandwagon and I just haven't seen it nikephorus. I have not been following the Weinstein and Charlie Sheen cases very closely. I have also been told on Mumsnet that there are people claiming to have ASD or mental health conditions just to jump on a bandwagon. I honestly have never seen this, either on MN or IRL or anywhere. Maybe I am just socially unaware!!

missy So.....most men shouldn’t assume consent, they would be wrong.

The OP wasn’t drunk in the first instance of him doing it.

It is unlikely he meant it genuinely as she pushed him away four times.

The OP can go to bed with whoever she likes for whatever purpose she likes. She doesn’t have to force herself to have sex with someone when she doesn’t want to because she agreed to foreplay earlier.

She does say that the relationship is ended.

Why should she put it down as a drunken fumble? He was wrong, he assaulted her.

Yep re jumping on the bandwagon

I would agree with the notion that there is a grey area in intimate relationships about these things but surely her moving his hand away from her genital areas was, if nothing else, at least an indication that she didn't want him to go any further (like sticking his finger in there) in that area just yet? Some people would move his hand away for example to signify that they aren't sufficiently aroused yet so he may have tried again thinking that that was what she meant but he went beyond that line didn't he?

Amelia oh hello! Back with more opinions? Oh no, just to stick the knife in to the OP about feeling the need to clarify a few points. I bet that’s made her feel much better.

Ttbb he could have spoken to her if he wasn’t sure though, surely?

OP said: It was attempted penetration before I removed his hand (and then again and again etc.).

missymayhem, did you get that?

"You were both drunk, you experienced it as assault, he may have genuinely intended it as foreplay, intending to arouse you physically to a point where you would overcome your inhibitions and change your mind about having sex."

This is seriously fucked up, missymayhem. Please, honestly, read the consent website. Or at least the whole thread.

I appreciate that the op probably felt uncomfortable giving too many details, but to me there’s a difference between roaming hands and digital penetration. And maybe I’ve got a funny shape, but my pants skim my hip bone. I suppose I’d assumed (& I’ll check my assumptions in future) that if there was more to it then the op would have said.

For that I apologize op. I didn’t like to think of you all anxious over what (to a few of us) was pestering groping, when in fact it was (on my scale - I accept that that is very open to interpretation) much more.

It’s really good the op is checking her perceptions and getting support. That’s the important thing as far as I’m concerned.

User Whether this is classified as sexual assault or not if it upsets you, that is valid and I am sorry you went through that- it sounds horrible and scary

AmeliaFlashTart Seriously, I did not read that into the OPs post at all. Why would anyone want to jump on a sex assault bandwagon? There seems no real benefit to it at all?

That is sexual assault.

Anyone who thinks otherwise shouldn't be allowed out without a minder.

So all you labelling it sexual assault are encouraging OP to report it to the police then?

Has anyone done that, Amelia? No.
That is for OP to decide. She asked for help in understanding what had happened to her. That's what some posters have tried to provide.

AmeliaFlash If OP did report it to the police, surely it is up to her? A lot of people who have been assaulted do not report it to the police. It is a question of whether it will benefit the OP or not. Her call to make.

Christ on a bike this thread is mental.

CakeFreeWonderland In what way is this thread mental?

Amelia I really think you could do with reading the links AuntyElle posted on consent. Might open your eyes a bit.

Thanks to all those who have posted (sorry for the late reply). I was never intending to report it as I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that, regardless of what I ended up classifying the incidents as. I only started the thread for clarity/opinions and some advice, so thanks to those who have provided that.

  I'm still not sure why there are comments about me 'jumping on a bandwagon'. How and why would I (or anyone, for that matter) choose to do that? It would cause a lot of suffering for all involved.

Wishing you all good things, OP.

devil is in the detail - which we don't want here.
If he was lying beside you and his first move was to attempt to stick his finger in then hes an ignorant fuck in every possible interpretation and that is assault the first time let alone subsequent.

If he was rubbing and you were happy with that - it's foreplay. If you were unhappy when he moved an inch further round but OK when he moved back then it's much harder to judge

you should be able to say 'I don't want you to put it in' up front and have it respected - any messing about after saying that is assault imho

'If you were unhappy when he moved an inch further round but OK when he moved back then it's much harder to judge'

What does this mean? I've already made it clear that I wasn't at all happy, and he didn't 'move back' anywhere: I had to physically remove his hand and move it away from my body.

FFS some of the responses on this thread are shocking and disgusting.

Thank god for the likes of of AuntyElle

OP, I am sorry this has happened to you, it is sexual assault and I hope you have support in RL.

You can change your mind at any time and for any reason.

Moving his hand away was ‘no’ and at the very least should have prompted the guy to actually verbally ask you what was ok or not. He didn’t though, he just did it again. And again. And again.

I agree with Rinoachicken

The onus is not on the OP to say NO, it's actually on the guy to check that he does in fact have consent. He didn't have that. OP moving his hand away multiple times shows that clearly.