To worry that this was sexual assault/harassment? Or at least a violation of boundaries?

[user1496156134]

This may be long, so bear with me.
I began dating someone in early July and we met up about once a week or so. I had known them for several years prior to this. We started doing sexual things (not actual intercourse but other stuff) maybe 3ish weeks into the relationship. This was all fine: comfortable and consensual.
Then in early August he stayed over and we decided to have sex. We changed our minds and did 'other stuff' instead although he was quite persistent in trying to convince me to have sex. He stayed over (i.e. we slept in the same bed) and we both woke up at about 4am. I don't know whether we both naturally woke (e.g. in response to a noise outside or something). Regardless, he started moving his hand down into my underwear. I moved his hand away but didn't tell him no. He repeated this 3-4 times, with me moving his hand away each time, until I said "I'm tired" and we went to sleep. At the time I didn't think much of it, just that it was annoying/uncomfortable, but now when I think of it I feel sick to my stomach about the fact that I just went to sleep afterwards with him still there.

In early September, we went to a friend's party. We were both very drunk (him more than me) as were many others. When we went into the front room to lie down (friend had offered their front room for all those wanting to stay overnight as it was quite late, so there were matresses/futons set up) I was feeling very lightheaded and tired due to drink. He started to grope me a bit and then the whole thing happened again (hand moving into underwear several times, me moving it away but not saying no, etc.). I remember drunkenly asking him something like "Why do you keep doing that?". I don't remember what/if he answered. Eventually other friends came into the room and he left and I went to sleep. At the time I remember feeling very anxious and like I should leave the room and find my friends, but I was so tired that I was close to passing out.

I don't know how I feel about this all. I don't whether I'm just overreacting, or what I'm supposed to think.

Yes but OP states they were in bed doing sexual stuff but not intercourse. Sorry but most would consider that foreplay, he tried to take it further that's all. She admits she did agree to intercourse at one point then changed her mind, he tried to persuade her to change it again.

Yes, he tried to take it further and was pushed away (fine) but then had to be pushed away another three times (not fine). Then on a second occaison tried again and was pushed away (fine) and still had to be pushed away a further three times (not fine).

No sorry, I’m wrong about the second time. That wasn’t during a mutually-consensual session, it was when the OP was drunk and lightheaded so not fine to try it on then.

No he did not bloody misunderstand. She moved his hand off her. He went back. Fucks sake.

You asked, I gave you my opinion based on the info you gave, sorry if you don't like it!

So how do you initiate sex? I am lying down with DP, we have been going out for a while, done lots of sex stuff, agreed to have intercourse, gone to bed together then I touch him and he moves my hand. I would try again unless he said no. Or kiss or move nearer. If he said no he was tired - as he does sometimes - I'd stop but I wouldn't consider myself a sex pest or that I assaulted him.

OP went back out with him and continued to do sex stuff. He just attempted to have full sex, you pushed his had away, he tried again and then gave up when you made it clear that you were not interested. He didn't push, he didn't force, neither of you verbalised it. You pushed him away and he stopped.

I didn't say I didn't appreciate your opinion: I asked if you thought that consent was ongoing or if it's a one time thing.

I already explained that we decided not to have sex, did other things and then went to sleep. The incident didn't directly follow the initial foreplay etc.

OP just seen your update. Didn't realise how young you were or that you were a virgin. Take care and be clear with what you do and don't want. Best wishes, x

If you don't want sex with a man probably best not to get into bed and do sexual stuff. Just snog in the sofa.

OR find a decent man who respects your boundaries? Instead of a creep who has to be pushed away four times and tries to take advantage of a drunk woman?

@MiraiDevant: what would the score be if one/both of you was drunk? Would you view it in the same way? I don't think kissing/moving nearer is the same as trying to insert your finger into someone (sorry as that is possibly TMI).

I didn't continue to do sex stuff after the first incident. I never said that. He did 'push'. I don't know whether or not he would have stopped if other people hadn't come into the room.

Mirai what if he moved your hand away three times? Would you try for a fourth?

Oh and the hand thing is "other things" - he was probably trying to give you some pleasure manually hoping you'd like it and be excited by it.

He shouldn't have been persistent but you do need to say "No I don't want to do anything at all now" and sensible to remove yourself from situation.

I think if you do sexual stuff with someone and fall asleep in bed with them, then its not that unlikely that they'll think you might be up for more sexual stuff when you wake up together a few hours later. That doesn't mean that you owe them sex, or that they are entitled to take it, but I can understand a bit of wandering hand tbh.

Why are you so reluctant to say "no" or "stop that" incidentally?

If you're this uncertain then you need to have clear rules with a potential partner.
It's usual to 'try' a bit more without actually asking it or announcing that it's ok.
If you're not comfortable then you say so.

If in a relationship IMO touching the first time is ok (unless it's something you've never done before - I'm not very clear whether 'sex stuff' includes his hand in your pants). When you took his hand away then he shouldn't have put it back. At best it's pestering, but I think it could be described as assault. The drunk incident is the same, also kind of gross being in someone else's lounge.

I don't know how or why we both woke up at 4am. As I said, it could have been a noise outside or something, but I don't know that he didn't wake me up by touching me. With regards to saying no: I thought that removing his hand and moving it away would be enough (again, inexperienced). When he kept doing it I felt a bit nervous. The second time, I don't think I was really coherent enough to say no/properly know what was going on.

I thought that removing his hand and moving it away would be enough

And you were right, it should have been. He’s a dickhead, and you didn’t do anything wrong

Nervous is ok.
But you need to be able to trust him.
He doesn't sound v trustworthy

I would also agree that touching once to try to initiate things is perfectly fine. It was the persistence that I didn't like.

"he was probably trying to give you some pleasure manually hoping you'd like it and be excited by it."
I understand this but he kept trying to insert his finger and it was somewhat painful (again TMI).

God, there are some awful comments here. I'm sorry, OP.

This article might be helpful:
www.teenvogue.com/story/consent-how-to

"Are they pulling away, freezing in fear, do they seem uncomfortable, or do they not respond in any sort of way? Those are all the nonverbal equivalent of a “no” and you should stop touching them. If their body language is ambiguous, or if you’re not quite sure what it is saying, don’t assume it’s saying what you want it to be saying."

(Not assuming you are a teen btw, but it just seemed quite comprehensive.)

Thank you @AuntyElle

He should not have persisted when you moved his hand. It would be better though if you felt able to say "no stop" to anyone you're intimate with (which is not to say what happens if you don't/ can't is your fault). Anyone who gets upset because you tell them to stop is not someone who you want to be around.

Yes, lots of victim-blaming crapola on here. Foxache...

I think a lot of people would assume consent has already been given if you are already in bed doing "sexual stuff".

1. Those people would be wrong, both legally and morally. 2. And if they took a moment to think about it they would realise how obviously they were wrong - do you think men who think like this believe they have implicitly consented to anything because they're in bed having a snog? 3. If they believe it in the circumstances the OP describes, they're believing it so perversely that I'm not sure it counts as belief. That behaviour does not say "yes please, I'd love to," and if the situation was not sexual nobody would be arguing it could sensibly be read that way.

OP, if he was repeatedly trying to insert his finger into your vagina, despite you moving his hand away, then that is sexual assault.

From The Met:
"Assault by penetration is when a person penetrates another person's vagina or anus with any part of the body other than a penis, or by using an object, without the persons consent...
The overall definition of sexual or indecent assault is an act of physical, psychological and emotional violation in the form of a sexual act, inflicted on someone without their consent.
Not all cases of sexual assault involve violence, cause physical injury or leave visible marks. Sexual assault can cause severe distress, emotional harm and injuries which can't be seen - all of which can take a long time to recover from. This is why we use the term 'assault', and treat reports just as seriously as those of violent, physical attacks.

Consent: What separates sex, or a gesture of affection, from sexual assault? It's a matter of consent. That is, both people agreeing to what's happening by choice, and having the freedom and ability to make that choice.
www.consentiseverything.com "

A few people on this thread seriously need to read that link to an explanation of consent, a link provided by the police.