To worry that this was sexual assault/harassment? Or at least a violation of boundaries?

[user1496156134]

This may be long, so bear with me.
I began dating someone in early July and we met up about once a week or so. I had known them for several years prior to this. We started doing sexual things (not actual intercourse but other stuff) maybe 3ish weeks into the relationship. This was all fine: comfortable and consensual.
Then in early August he stayed over and we decided to have sex. We changed our minds and did 'other stuff' instead although he was quite persistent in trying to convince me to have sex. He stayed over (i.e. we slept in the same bed) and we both woke up at about 4am. I don't know whether we both naturally woke (e.g. in response to a noise outside or something). Regardless, he started moving his hand down into my underwear. I moved his hand away but didn't tell him no. He repeated this 3-4 times, with me moving his hand away each time, until I said "I'm tired" and we went to sleep. At the time I didn't think much of it, just that it was annoying/uncomfortable, but now when I think of it I feel sick to my stomach about the fact that I just went to sleep afterwards with him still there.

In early September, we went to a friend's party. We were both very drunk (him more than me) as were many others. When we went into the front room to lie down (friend had offered their front room for all those wanting to stay overnight as it was quite late, so there were matresses/futons set up) I was feeling very lightheaded and tired due to drink. He started to grope me a bit and then the whole thing happened again (hand moving into underwear several times, me moving it away but not saying no, etc.). I remember drunkenly asking him something like "Why do you keep doing that?". I don't remember what/if he answered. Eventually other friends came into the room and he left and I went to sleep. At the time I remember feeling very anxious and like I should leave the room and find my friends, but I was so tired that I was close to passing out.

I don't know how I feel about this all. I don't whether I'm just overreacting, or what I'm supposed to think.

Op, you are drip-feeding which is affecting what people are saying. Initially I thought it was creeping hands - and yes you shouldn’t have to push his hand away 4 times, but I was under the impression it was hand under hem of pants. Now it’s digital penetration? Well, that’s a different kettle of fish (to me) that a tentative hand under knickers.

I think in a sense you’re seeing this from one side only. By that I mean, yes, definitely consent can be withdraw after days, weeks, years. For sure! But if you have had sex then it’s quite reasonable for either partner to think “I’m in a sexual relationship” and make a move. Having said that they need to pay attention to a verbal no or your body freezing up & other (pretty obvious) non-verbal cues.

If it had been creeping hand and you were both drunk, tbh I would not consider that assault, I’d consider it annoying persistence.

Nikephorus, Enwi, AmeliaFlashtart, lizzieoak, MiraiDevant, BarbariaMum
Just to be really clear...

No ones arguing that consent cant be withdrawn (at least Im not). But being clear helps and the OP seems almost afraid to be clear. And yes, a wandering hand is a bit different from repeated attempts at vaginal penetration.

I'm sorry: I didn't mean to drip feed. I just found it uncomfortable to divulge so much in my original post. It was attempted penetration before I removed his hand (and then again and again etc.). I'm willing to say that this was simply harassment of some sort rather than assault and I'm grateful for everyone's opinions, hence why I started the thread.

Thank you to @AuntyElle and others who have been very kind.

Yes, I’ve just said that below.

I had been under the impression he was tentatively pestering her hip bone or some such region, which, to me, is annoying but understandable when drunk and in a relationship. In that case I’d say he needed a talking to to explain that that is not okay. In this I’m assuming he’s young as well. Digital penetration is different and clearly the op is upset about it so I hope the thread has helped her feel her way to what her gut tells her. Sometimes we need a variety of opinions to know what our own is.

I appreciate that I did drip feed, but I did make it clear in my original post that his hand went into my underwear, not towards 'my hip bone or some such region'.

The OP said several times that he was moving his hand into her underwear. Not her hip.

Don’t apologise for drip feeding, it didn’t add anything to the thread unless you believe that consent is a grey area (I don’t).

I think it is unfair to accuse OP of drip-feeding, lizzieoak. OP said "he started moving his hand down into my underwear". She did not say anything about it being "tentative", in fact the opposite. If you were "under the impression it was hand under hem of pants" then that is your (wrong) assumption.
This is a difficult and sensitive issue, and I imagine that OP was putting as much detail as she felt comfortable with at first. It was only after many minimising and misinformed replies that she seemingly felt it necessary to be be more blunt.

No OP it is sexual assault. Trying to penetrate you without your consent is totally not on (and trying repeatedly when you've pushed his hand away is worse).

I had been under the impression he was tentatively pestering her hip bone or some such region,

But why would you minimise like this, lizzieoak? OP said "into my underwear".

A lot of the answers on this thread are disturbing and downright wrong.

I'm really sorry this happened to you OP. I think The Met's description is really clear and helpful.
It might be worth speaking to a helpline?

In my teen years I quite often stopped hands that were wandering into my knickers (this was the 1980s) but not once did anyone try to penetrate me. So maybe Ive just been lucky but I honestly didn't equate the two.

I wasn't sure in my first response, having read more of your posts OP I'd say it was assault. Something similar happened to me once when I was a teenager. It left me with ambiguous feelings towards sex for a while and I used to freeze and get very tense. In my case it didn't go further thankfully because someone interrupted it.

Anyway drunk people can't give consent, can they? There's that British tea youtube video on consent and I'm pretty sure it says that if someone's too drunk to decide whether they want tea or not, or too drunk to respond properly, then you don't pour tea down their throat.

I like that TeenVogue definition too - will be using that with both DS and DD when they are a little older (they've had an age-appropriate form already).

I would say that the penetration crosses the line from possibly him trying to gain consent by touching you (again it depends on how many times he did it/intervals/how experienced he is etc) into assault (if you kept moving husband away when he touched you it doesn't make sense that he would think that this was a green light to penetrate you).

Thank you for tagging me in that however you obviously didn’t read my post properly. I never suggested consent can’t be withdrawn. I said that OP’s partner wasn’t assaulting her by assuming consent, especially as she didn’t actually say anything, or do anything that clearly said ‘no’ to her partner.
You can change your mind at any point, of course, but you need to actually let someone know you have changed your mind and in OP’s original posts, it did not seem like she had done this very clearly when taking into account that they were doing sexual things already, and were in a relationship.

Enwi SHE.MOVED.HIS.HAND.AWAY. FOUR. TIMES.

What part of that says ‘consent’ to you? What part of that is not clear?

Bloody hell, this is infuriating.

If DH and I woke up at 4am, he started groping me and I removed his hand without saying anything, lets say I was too sleepy to do more than mumble, he wouldn't persist. He never has - I wouldn't still be with him if he had ever done anything like in the OP.

If he came up to me now and started groping me and I removed his hand without saying anything he would stop and probably ask me if I was ok. Because he's a decent man who has always stopped instantly if I've shown any signs of not being happy.

Yes if you're in a relationship you don't necessarily need to ask permission every time you want to touch your partner, but if from their reaction it's obvious they don't want you to, you stop. It's not difficult.

I honestly don’t believe it is 100% clear to some people. I am in a relationship with my partner, we are sexually active. If he moved my hand away after when we were already engaging in foreplay no I would not assume he meant ‘get off!’. I would assume he was getting comfortable, needed to scratch first, wanted me to touch the location he pushed his hand to. If you are in a relationship and old enough to be doing sexual things with people then i’m sorry but I think you need to be able to say ‘no’. I certainly wouldn’t be getting in an intimate relationship with someone who wasn’t able to say ‘no’ to me, and instead wanting to merely rely on my body language.
I have already said that OP’s partner could have been less of a twat, he could have been more in tune with her and he should have realised the second or third time what she was getting at, but I also think OP has a responsibility as a sexually active woman in a relationship to be able to say no.

Pushing a hand away - four times - is someone clearly saying no. It was not during foreplay, like in your example Enwi. There is no grey area.

"I had been under the impression he was tentatively pestering her hip bone or some such region,"

@Enwi that's probably fair enough if you're already engaging in foreplay, though again, if he removed your hand more than once wouldn't you get the hint? And if it's hours later after you've both been asleep, isn't that a bit different?

Of course it's better to say 'no', but people react differently.

Enwi (and others) do any of you genuinely believe that he was unsure of what the OP wanted him to do after she pushed his hand away even twice? I don’t. He knew exactly what he was doing. Consent isn’t confusing.

The same people who keep pushing that the OP didn’t say no - none of you have asked if he said anything to her? Like ‘is this ok?’ Or ‘sorry, do you want me to stop?’ - surely if he was such a confused, helpless man in the face of all these tricky rules about consent and body language he would have used his own voice?

Enwi, the onus is on the person initiating sexual contact.

OP didn't change her mind at this point. Her partner started touching her after waking up in the night. And on another occasion when she was drunk. Moving her partner's hand away repeatedly was clearly stating no consent. It does not have to be verbal, just as initiating sexual contact does not have to be done verbally.

"The person seeking or initiating sex is responsible for getting consent.

You can confirm if you have consent by checking the other person’s body language and by asking them.

Check with them on each occasion you start any sexual conduct.

Look at their body language and facial expression to see if they are eager and comfortable.

If they seem unhappy, or you are not sure they are consenting, stop.

Silence, or the absence of a “no”, does not guarantee somebody is consenting."

That is from the website linked to by The Met: www.consentiseverything.com

Most of the above normally happens naturally, without consciously thinking about it. It's when it does not happen, and signs of lack of consent are ignored, that there is a problem.

OP, you have a perfect right to be upset and angry, this man has ignored the boundaries you were setting and assaulted you, in that he has touched you intimately without your consent.
But I am afraid that most men would assume that once you are in a sexual relationship with them and lying down together cuddling then it's a matter of when rather than if you will take things to their 'logical conclusion' and if that isn't what you choose to do you need to say so and get out of that situation. You were both drunk, you experienced it as assault, he may have genuinely intended it as foreplay, intending to arouse you physically to a point where you would overcome your inhibitions and change your mind about having sex.

While consent is consent and what he did was wrong, in future you would be wise to avoid going to bed with a lover you don't intend to have sex with.

Put it down to experience as a drunken fumble but trust your gut instincts and the warning bells in your head regarding whether you want to trust this person again ( you don't say whether you ended the relationship?)

I read Nikephorus comment as saying that consent can often be misunderstood in intimate relationships and it may be hard to know where the boundaries lie. Correct me if I am wrong Nikephorus, just checking if I have misunderstood at all? If so, then I think that is a valid point.

Not sure I agree about people jumping on the bandwagon though- I think sexual assault covers a range of behaviour from flashing and crude comments through to rape. I do not think it is offensive to call a bit of unwanted touching assault.

As a child I suffered inappropriate touching from a family member, at school by other kids and a stranger in my teens. Over my clothes. Not penetration. I still consider it assault in a way and am seeking PTSD counselling as regards this. I hope I am not being offensive by doing so???

This thread is mental.