WWBU - Racial Guilt?

[LyannaStarktheWolfMaid]

I had dinner with some very good friends last night. At two in the morning after a skinful of wine, my friend (who is a British man of Sikh Indian descent) casually threw out the idea that white Brits should feel cultural guilt about the (obviously horrific) cruelty in the history of the British Empire. Cue discussion about cultural guilt in general, e.g. how do Germans feel about the Nazis, etc. To which I responded, as a white Brit, I need to feel guilt about the crimes of my forebears to the same degree that you should feel guilty about the crimes of men against women. General dinner party concensus was that that's completely different. I'm not sure that it is. What do you think?

Nor am I!

Lucydogz, Sati was not an inherent part of HInduism or Indian culture. During the islamic invasion, women practiced this to save themselves from rape. Pre-mughals/Ghazni, India was largely Hindu and there is no mention of Sati in any ancient scriptures. And most of the 'reputation' of Sati comes from missionaries and the British Government, for whom it was imperative that India and Indian customs were demeaned. Can you imagine the levels of exxageration that we did to prove that the Indians were barabric with their customs? Oh and want to know the irony about Sati? Women had a choice. It was up to them if they wanted to burn at the pyre or not. How about that for being pro-women?

I agree. The caste system is absolutely irrelevant in this day and age. It is exactly the same as the class system that we have. Again, if you want to know more about why it worked in the earliest days then you should read more. India is really really old and it is absolutely fascinating to read about it. Their traditions pre-date ours. They had governance and modern ideas way before us. Read up about Chanakya. You will know what politics is all about.

Indian was no better than us in loads of these areas and no one need apologise to anyone. Historical competitiveness never really gets us very far.

We are here today. All of us, 100% of us, entirely, came out of Africa and covered the planet. We are all related and all linked.

Everything was great before the British empire. I'm not trying to excuse the atrocities committed ( im not even British) but this is simply not true.

The caste system is not exactly the same as the class system. It is a class system reinforced by religion - much worse imo. And I don't think colonialists needed to exaggerate how awful sutee was. Love the idea that it was a feminist decision to commit it and not a reflection on how bad the status of widows was.

Bluebells, I tried to find out about this having discussed this with friends but to date I still have not found any example of where women in India (or any other place) had rights you speak off. Instead, all I see are "rights" that men allowed women to have under certain circumstances.

I don’t think the english class system and the hindu caste system can be equated. They are not the same.

Well Op

Men of colour had the vote before white women did in the uk.

They were also allowed to go to university before white women were.

They also got to keep their earnings and property before married women were.

(Of course it is all women who have had their rights given to them at a later date and not just white women)

In regards to what posters are saying about India being progressive in women’s rights before the empire, I was led to believe that this was before the split between India and Pakistan and there would have been a lot of Islam in India at that time. The Quran is very oppressive (as is the bible) against women. An example of this would be women are not allowed to deny their husbands sex or the angels will curse them until the morning. I very much doubt it was a progressive place for women’s rights.

Ha ha. That's why I said it was the Irony. One of the many books on this matter is 'The Ivory Throne: Chronicles of the house of Travancore'. There are loads of books and historical information in the archives. I have studied this in some depth and a lot of my friends are Historians specializing in the British colonies/India. Always remember we never were educated about the truth and the Indian schools and Universities still folow their colonial history and what we have 'told' them is safe to record.

The problem here is very simple. For the purpose of control and rule, it was very convenient for the British Raj to enforce a uniform code across the colonies. Not everything was better before we went in. But then they had a system that worked for them and we meddled with it and made it tough for them to now survive. We forcibly took their land and plundered their riches. We became rich off of our colonies. That alone is a reason to hang our heads in shame. We had zero compassion and zero respect for anything or anyone 'different' to us. We altered history, we killed their freedom fighters and denied everything decent to them. And we chose a date and time we would levae them. WE chose who will rule/Goven them. We were absolutely vile. I don't know about any of you, but I hang my head in shame and I can not believe we have done enough to make things right. We deserve every single chaos we are experiencing today.

'The Quran is very oppressive (as is the bible) against women. An example of this would be women are not allowed to deny their husbands sex or the angels will curse them until the morning. I very much doubt it was a progressive place for women’s rights.'

Here we go again! How old do you actually think India is? Harappa and Mohan jo daro is India. Islam and quran is modern history as far as India is concerned.

Bluebells who’s we? I don’t remember doing any of this.

I’ve suffered greatly at the hands of Asian men in my old community. I don’t hold every Asian man accountable for their actions nor do I think they should feel any guilt just because they’re the same ethnicity. Why should I feel guilt at the actions of other people because they’re the same ethnicity as me?

PMSL @ @bluebells1 😁😁😂😂🤣🤣

To those who really want to know more about how Old india is, look up the Indus Valley Civilization. BTW we forced a bunch of kingdoms with nothing in common to come together and become India. We were fucking stupid. Looks like we still are.

Most of what all of you say here is basic lack of knowledge about how far, wide and big their history is. Unless you actively look for information and have Indian friends who truly know their history you will still be spouting british made history and 'facts'.

Sati was not an inherent part of HInduism or Indian culture. During the islamic invasion, women practiced this to save themselves from rape.

Cos burning to death is preferable obvs

Can you imagine the levels of exxageration that we did to prove that the Indians were barabric with their customs?

Burning yep that's barbaric no exaggeration needed.

Oh and want to know the irony about Sati? Women had a choice. It was up to them if they wanted to burn at the pyre or not. How about that for being pro-women?

Fab cos apparently as you stated yourself they did it to save themselves from rape - that's so pro women isn't it.......

The Spainish did so much for South America didn’t they?
Romans very supportive of Celtic culture. Russians also respectful towards Ukrainians, Japanese to Chinese.
Why do you single out the British in particular?

'I’ve suffered greatly at the hands of Asian men in my old community. I don’t hold every Asian man accountable for their actions nor do I think they should feel any guilt just because they’re the same ethnicity. Why should I feel guilt at the actions of other people because they’re the same ethnicity as me?'

This is the most stupid thing yet. It is not ethnicity. It is a fact. It is a fact that we(Britain) had colonies and got rich off of that. It is as vile as Slavery. You have the freedom to be in denial.

Bluebells yes it’s modern history but it’s still a significant part of the history that would have partaken in the oppression of women pre-British raj

So did quite a few other countries!

I’m so glad you raised this point with your friend. It’s something I have always wondered about - eg why Tony Blair apologised for slavery but did not simultaneously apologise on behalf of his sex for the millennia of oppression of women.

I also wonder why misogyny is not an equal hate crime to that of racism. I can only surmise that it is because racism also affects men

'Why do you single out the British in particular?'

Because of how vast our 'empire' was. Apparently the sun never set in the British Empire.

It certainly was not the biggest the world has ever seen, just the most recent.

i reckon it's quite an easy get-out-clause - oh it was before my time.

Well probably you shouldn't feel guilty as such, but certainly be aware of the damage the British empire did (and the Spanish and the German and the Belgian). The massacres, the famines, the drawing of borders (i mean.. nigeria is a case in point - and have you seen the straight lines drawn across africa that just set up conflict situations that still exist), the destruction of governance, extraction of riches and people..

And that much of the country's wealth is built on this. e.g.the money to build infrastructure and schools, and universities. Basically taken from other countries and fed into ours. The whole model of the colonies was extraction -the roads and railways were built to go to the ports.

Of course there was oppression! There is no denying that! The mughals were the first to invade India -so to speak. They came in and did the same as us. Except their tyranny did not last as long. India has been plundered repeatedly for their wealth and natural resources. The difference between Mughals and the British is that the Mughals settled in India and did not loot and send it back 'home'.

Bluebells make up your mind:
White people should feel guilty because other white people commited atrocities= the word ‘white’ could be interchangeable with any other race
British people are still benefiting from the atrocities of other British people = all people in Britain should feel guilty for benefiting from this.

Lastly literally almost everyone in history was a c*nt so where does this end?