WWBU - Racial Guilt?

[LyannaStarktheWolfMaid]

I had dinner with some very good friends last night. At two in the morning after a skinful of wine, my friend (who is a British man of Sikh Indian descent) casually threw out the idea that white Brits should feel cultural guilt about the (obviously horrific) cruelty in the history of the British Empire. Cue discussion about cultural guilt in general, e.g. how do Germans feel about the Nazis, etc. To which I responded, as a white Brit, I need to feel guilt about the crimes of my forebears to the same degree that you should feel guilty about the crimes of men against women. General dinner party concensus was that that's completely different. I'm not sure that it is. What do you think?

I'm not sure about the historical guilt thing. My forebears were working the fields or dying in the coal mines. Obviously not comparable to slavery but they certainly weren't growing fat on the colonies.

I have had similar conversations. My family were miners, agricultural labourers and railway workers until my parents were able to benefit from free secondary education and the raising of the school leaving age in the post war years. My best friend's family were evicted from farms in Ireland by English landowners when the potato blight made it impossible for them to pay their rent. Some of her ancestors ended up in temporary camps, excluded from towns because they were accused of bringing cholera. Others were lucky enough to end up in mills and factories in Manchester, working 15 hour days. Even if they had not all been poor labourers, our families would still have been excluded from any positions of power in society (the English universities, the professions etc) by virtue of their religion (mine non-conformist, hers Catholic.) And this doesn't take into account the position of half of them as women. I can't therefore feel any personal responsibility for the Empire in general or slavery in particular.

However I think that symbolically it is important for nations to acknowledge that their own wealth and power was built on exploiting and oppressing others.

That's interesting to know Bluebells. What about Muslim women, did they have their same agency? How come, as we women in the west have gained some equality, Indian society has not followed suit, if equality was their cultural tradition anyway?

It really detracts from embedded, pervasive and institutionalised racial discrimination and oppression when a woman seeks to 'empathise' because women have suffered (and do suffer) at the hands of patriarchy. It is incomparable.

I don't feel guilt about anything historical. I could do nothing about it so why feel guilty? I am angry about modern day slavery for example and disgusted by the millions enslaved by the Romans. I can do nothing about the Romans but I do sign petitions, keep my eyes open and help people through one of my jobs regarding cruelty and slavery today. We are not responsible for our ancestors but we are responsible for bringing up our children to make sure they are aware and appalled at modern day atrocities, and that they help whenever it is in their power to do so.

I'm not sure I agree Vladimir. I'm not sure that black/Asian men don't have it easier than white women.

I agree with you, and so does my partner, who is Indian.

I recognise and disapprove of the huge number of injustices that my race has done towards others but I do not feel guilt. I have enough guilt over my own actions let alone someone else's.

Vladimirs

I'm honestly not clear what point you are making. You seem to be saying both that its not 'top trumps' and that racial oppression is worse than oppression of women. I apologise if I'm reading you incorrectly but I genuinely don't understand your point.

My point was that all women suffer systemic oppression.

Women who have the additional compounding factors of race or class (or others) will have compounded oppression but that still includes sex based oppression.

I agree completely OP.

My ancestors have all been peasants who were lucky if they had a roof over their heads, one meal a day, and a lifespan that exceeded 40. They weren't exactly out there stamping the boot on the natives, they were too busy avoiding the boot themselves.

Yes they may have been born in the colonising country, but you can't blame them for that. Or you can, but it's basically xenophobia in itself.. It cuts both ways.

But why does it have to be an either / or - game of top trumps?

Because that’s what the dinner party conversation was about.

I don't feel guilty at all.

Not my actions.

An interesting thread and your point OP particularly

I just wanted to add as an Irish person whose ancestors were also oppressed by the English, that the conditions for the English working class in the nineteenth century were also appalling. We were nearly all victims.

Many societies were matriarchal with unprecedented powers and rights being bestowed to women until us Brits went over and tried to change it around and forced them to take up our Victorian values

I love this and have always suspected that. They say the Bhurka was invented to protect women from being raped by the Colonialists.

I don't feel guilty about the actions of my ancestors. I am happy to admit it was atrocious and should never have happened, but I played no part in it and so I cannot feel "guilty" about it.

I find the self-flagellation over the past odd, often quite self-indulgent/virtue signalling and a waste of energy and emotion. Far better to focus on the fact that there is still discrimination based on ethnicity and gender and work towards tackling that.

And on a lighter note, my DD, who is British studying in Ireland, was recently treated to an anti English, potato famine based diatribe. Despite 50% of her DNA being Irish and fleeing to Briain to escape the aftermath of aforesaid potato famine and the other half being Welsh and starving down the pit at their time.

Disagree completely, there is white and male privilege of course but to feel guilt over anothers actions is very strange.

If I wasn't directly responsible, I won't accept guilt. Human history is full of atrocities and ugliness. I plan to learn from it, not wear a hair shirt.

But in relation to the OP- if you must feel guilty about being white, then I agree your friend should feel guilt about being a man

But where does it end? There have been so many periods in history where one ethnic group or religious group oppressed another, where atrocities have occurred. I think sometimes you have to acknowledge that events of the past were truly awful- and to try to understand how they came to past, so that we can try to avoid making the same errors in the future- whilst focusing on the present and what you can do to improve things. Feeling guilty about the past achieves nothing.

FFS, in that case I want an apology from all the English posters for what happened in Ireland, or we could just stop with the guilt bullshit and get on with it. Or should I feel guilty for what the Provos did? Sorry, nope, not giving one as I was in no way involved or responsible. It's one thing remembering the past and learning from it and an other to feel guilty about it.

In the case of the Empire it's tricky. We, as a nation, still benefit from it while other nations are still at a disadvantage from it.

Should we feel guilty? Well I don't see the point. We should be aware though.

The existence of the Empire also explains ‘why it is that British charities play such a disproportionately large role in international development and disaster relief’, as Jeremy Paxman says.

Many societies were matriarchal with unprecedented powers and rights being bestowed to women

What are you taking about? Because that statement in relation to India, and/or the Middle East, in the timeline you are discussing is pretty much absolute fantasy!

Where did you get this from?

Women being shat upon was not invented by the British Empire.

Guilt is pointless but responsibility is not.

You can't feel guilty for something you didn't do but you can feel responsible for acknowledging the privilege you have and the culture you live in.

Absolutely. Acknowledge and work towards making up for it.

Nobody is guilty for things that are not their responsibility, especially for the things that happened before they were born.

We may as well blame everything on Africa - that's where humans originate from, so really we should blame Africa for everything bad that has ever happened.

There is so much bullshit about "white privilege" bandied about these days. Your so-called Sikh friend should remember the hideous acts committed in the name of his religion. And anyway, if the British are bad, what the fuck is he doing associating with them?

He's a bigoted arsehole - ignore him, and change the people you attend dinner parties with.

I don't think guilt is step towards acknowledgement and change and totally agree with you.

I think not don't think....