WWBU - Racial Guilt?

[LyannaStarktheWolfMaid]

I had dinner with some very good friends last night. At two in the morning after a skinful of wine, my friend (who is a British man of Sikh Indian descent) casually threw out the idea that white Brits should feel cultural guilt about the (obviously horrific) cruelty in the history of the British Empire. Cue discussion about cultural guilt in general, e.g. how do Germans feel about the Nazis, etc. To which I responded, as a white Brit, I need to feel guilt about the crimes of my forebears to the same degree that you should feel guilty about the crimes of men against women. General dinner party concensus was that that's completely different. I'm not sure that it is. What do you think?

That’s why I hate dinner party debates. A couple of glasses of wine gets everyone argumentative and it all becomes about point scoring...

I agree. Anyone who thinks that it's reasonable to punish or shame people for the wrongingdoings of their ancestors, I.e. Completely different people who they have never met, is a moron.

Nope. I don't feel guilty about anything my ancestors from eleventy thousand years ago did.

Not my circus, not my monkeys.

And I am pissed off with people thinking white people with their white 'privilege' should be apologising for the actions of their forefathers, and basically, for being white.

@ChelleDawg2020

There is so much bullshit about "white privilege" bandied about these days. Your so-called Sikh friend should remember the hideous acts committed in the name of his religion. And anyway, if the British are bad, what the fuck is he doing associating with them?

This. ^

@bluebells1

Many societies were matriarchal with unprecedented powers and rights being bestowed to women

That has never happened, ever, in the history of time, on any continent, in any religion, like ever.

Though I do share the OP’s annoyance when somehow historical oppression of women doesn’t get the recognition it deserves.

And actually I don’t think it’s about guilt for past oppression. There is deep systematic oppression of women, and racial discrimination both here and across the world.

Many societies were matriarchal with unprecedented powers and rights being bestowed to women until us Brits went over and tried to change it around and forced them to take up our Victorian values.

Genuinely interested to see some links to support this statement?

I don't think guilt is appropriate, especially for historic events - nor for current ones, come to that, unless the person concerned has actively encouraged whatever the injustice is

A willingness to condemn wrongs and fight for collective change can be helpful though, whether that collective is social, racial, political, religious or anything else

Guilt is pointless but responsibility is not

Definitely NOT going to take responsibility for an ancestor or another's actions - Nothing to do with me. I don't expect my children to take responsibility or feel guilty for anything I have done either.

I don't feel guilty for anything I didn't personally do and/or condone.

But YANBU about awareness.

I'm intrigued by Bluebell's comment about matriarchal societies. I remember learning a bit about matriarchal tribes/cultures in some African countries in the 1600s - early 1800s. But I had no idea it was a thing anywhere as big as India and so recently.

I agree with the first post. there is just as much collective responsibility for men to apologise for women for 5000 years of mistreatment as for white British to apologise to Indians.

However I don't even think what our ancestors did is ever our fault of course. If we started apologising for everything in the past we would be here until Kingdom come. There is a very long list.

For me it’s a bit of a puzzle.
People saying that they will not feel guilty for what has been done under the British empire. That it wasn’t them anyway (as in not their families or them as people)

But at the same time, they are people who will very happily refer themselves as British and enjoy all the privileges coming from it.
Eg winning the WW2 (it would have been much much harder wo all the troups and food coming from the colonies) and the freedom it gave all of us.
The NHS, university etc... after the WW2 that happened THANKS to the wealth coming from the colonies
The overall economy of the U.K. that was build upon its colonies (both as markets and as ressources) - which is exactely the reason why some Leavers were so keen on reestablishing our links with the Commonwealth countries. They were a huge market for the U.K. to send it’s products to (and chosen in favour over other countries)
Slavery and the huge development of Liverpool to send slaves to America
Etc etc

It’s Impossible to separate what the country is now to what it’s has done in the past.
And I think that not recognising the huge positive impact said colonies and ‘immigrants’ that came from those countries to the U.K. as well as how poorly we treated them (ie taking what we wanted for our own interests and wealth) is actually morally wrong.
We did treat them badly and benefitted form that. We are still benefitting form that because it allowed us to things we wouldn’t have been able to do otherwise.
I don’t have any issue about not feeling guilty but surely you should feel responsible for it. Responsible enough that you will ensure that this will never happen again. Responsible because you know you are in a position of privilege and what you have is thanks to those less privilege people.
If you don’t have any feeling if responsibility for what has happened (both white vs other races or men vs women or any other privileged vs less privileged) the things will just carry on like they were before.

Women being shat upon was not invented by the British Empire

No, I think possibly the Roman Empire, , which was perpetuated through the Catholic Church was the European source of this.

Between English laws being imposed on the Colonies and the imitation of their oppressors, a lot of mysogyny passed on

I agree with you

I also think people should just draw a line and move on otherwise things will never change and there will always be hatred

While recognising both past and present actions and attitudes I don’t think we should feel guilty. All we can do is treat everyone around us as equal regardless of race, religion, gender and sexual orientation. And set a good example to our children by doing this.

I have absolutely no gripe with German people because I am Jewish. Most Germans are appalled by what happened and I feel bad on their behalf that they are still expected to feel guilty on behalf of previous generations. And even then i imagine many, many soldiers conscripted during WWII had to follow orders or lose their own lives. They were in a dreadful situation. At some point in history we have to be able to let go of any guilt. And gende inequality why should every man feel bad about the actions of other men. Again, do what you can regarding equality both at home, at work and out and about but surely you don’t have to carry eternal guilt around with you?

Women being shat upon was not invented by the British Empire

No, I think possibly the Roman Empire, www.youtube.com/watch?v=AU1dKfMIEUQ , which was perpetuated through the Catholic Church was the European source of this.

And still today through various religions (which I'm probably not allowed to mention on here)

I think that with gender equality, the issue is that the problem is very much there.
There is still no equality at all.
So yes then there is a need to feel guilty. Guilty of what THEY have done (because all men at some point will have been sexist and will have put women down/ignored input etc.. Just because they are women.)

And what is going to make them want to change their behaviour if it’s not the guilt that they have behaved badly in the past?

Fwiw, I think that most of us, as white, are just as privileged vs other races and actually are also carrying those stereotypes with us. And that we should strive to be more and more aware about them and strive (because we are guilty of it) to not do that again.
Eg have you ever done some of those sets to checks if you are racist (or rather judging people on their skin colour)? Most people if they are shown a photo of a black man will say that they look frightening for example. Showing loud a clear that even those of us who are say they aren’t racist still carry some very racists behaviours and reactions. Doing th test yourself is quite revealing.

"That has never happened, ever, in the history of time, on any continent, in any religion, like ever."

This is exactly the kind of ignorance that we Brits have. We have always been shown a whitewashed version of events and very very selective representation of facts, especially from the colonies. If you are truly interested in learning these things then please look for literature from that era. BBC about a small state in India as an example of society continuing the way it is supposed to.

I will come back with the name of the book that I read about a small but prosperous kingdom in India which was very progressive and very pro-women until we destroyed the norms. We did this systematically. We destroyed their self worth, we pushed our ideals as the best and the one to aspire for. Jobs would only be provided to the locals if they dressed and spoke like us.

Remember, India had trade links with many nations before we arrived at their shores. And they were all welcomed with open arms and happily co-existed with the locals. We looted, plundered, enslaved and destroyed the nation. .

Guilt for something over which we have no personal responsibility is pointless, but it is worth being very aware of what our country has done in the past. If people want to feel proud of being British, which it appears they do, they should know.

Although today we aren't personally responsible, every single British person benefits from the fact that we have a rich country, and we may well not have those benefits if we hadn't abused other countries and their people in the past.

It irritating when valid points that are worth discussion on their own have to be interrupted by feminism. That already has it's voice, and it shouldn't be used to shut down conversation about other equally horrible oppressions.

Guilt is useful insofar as it creates change.

I think we should be guilty about colonialism. For example divide and conquer pretty much created the Rwandan genocide. Where guilt fits in is if we understand that our forebears created the issue, we are far less likely to say (or think), "those Africans, they can't govern themselves, they deserve what they get".

In the context of male privilege, very very few men have stood up when I have been harassed in public. If collective guilt/responsibility was more common, more men would stand up, believe women, create systems that discouraged systemic abuses etc.

General white or male guilt that creates no change is stupid.

I think you’re come back was terrific, and it’s not different at all.

I don't agree raising the exploitation of men my women should be excluded from the thread. Why rights did British women have in the 1800s when they were not allowed to own property nor vote? So how could we as women have responsiblity and should feel guilt? We all anyway have the same origins so if there is guilt it can be guilt of all mankind surely?

mrsTerry.

Rwanda wasn’t a British colony. It was German and then Belgian.

What a horrendous dinner party! And now you know your friend is a knob and will never look at him quite the same.

so, how about the practice of sutee in pre-colonial India bluebells? Widows being burnt alive doesn't sound very matriarchal to me.

plus I couldn't get starry-eyed about the caste system (home-grown, not imposed by colonials) which was, and is, terrible.

@Abra1d it was an example. I can give you British ones. And you don’t know me, I’m not 100% British!