To think Innocent until proving guilty doesn't exist in this society anymore?

[adventuresinbabysitting]

Kevin Spacey's career is over.

There is no proof! If these things aren't true, where is the justice in that? I just don't get it. By all means go after him and seek justice if he has wronged you in a horrible way.

I know people will disagree, but I think it's wrong to be removing him from films etc yet.

Agree with mrs. Also think the use of 'people' makes it read like it was adults, when atleast one victim was a child.

Child services make decsions based on what is likely to be true or not. So a child doesn't have to stand up in court and proove her father was raping her to be protected. If there is a reasonable suspicion that an adult poses a risk to a child ss can intervene and protect the child. Completely reasonable for any other employer who has an involvement with vulnerable people to take the same steps, same goes for those who value theur reputation or how they are percieved by the public. If an actor damages the reputation of a project then it looses money-there are allways clauses in contracts to address this and actors have been dropped for a fuck of alot less (publicly taking drugs for example).

I agree OP, look at the guy who had "allegations" made against him in the Welsh Assembly. He wasn't even told the nature of the allegations, yet got fired from his position last Friday and took his own life on Tuesday. All without anything being proved. 😰

@uokhunni Exactly my point.

Kevin Spacey's welath, fame and fortune comes from being very much in the public eye. Now that he has been very publicly accused, the makers of his artistic and media projects will be very well aware of how this will hit them in their wallets. I don't want to go and see a film with an alleged rapist/abuser in it, do you?

So as far as that goes, film and tv studios are covering their own investments. I don't have too much of a problem with that.

Let's not forget, for all those wailing about ruined careers, that the President of the Fucking United States is on record for saying that you can grab women by the pussy.

@ButchyRestingFace it's the best isn't it!

Ironically isn't Anthony Rapp the young guy in it? The brothers friend?

His employer gets to choose if it's worth firing them over. As with any other employer in this situation where someone is accused of such a crime, that is their choice. There is little evidence that many accused of this have this sort of repercussions that there is anything like a 'witch hunt' or McCarthyism (both of which were using legal and government powers to attack those viewed as undesirable which is not the case with the current media attention of sexual abuse cases on powerful men).

Innocent until proven guilty is a legal thing - he cannot be punished in a court of law unless proven guilty - it has nothing to do with what the employer or general public. He already has lawyers and PR agents - he doesn't need us to protect him or his career.

Innocent until proven guilty doesn't mean 'make up reasons why he's likely to be innocent like slinging the accuser under the bus' which happens a lot in these cases. Surely the accuser is equally innocent until proven guilty of lying or having false memories. As others said, that seems to only come up in these sorts of cases when the rate of false allegations is no higher for sexual crimes than it is for theft or other crimes.

False memories have practically nothing to do with internal emotional conflict or sexuality or even brain trauma coping mechanisms (losing memories can be, but trauma condition and false memories have no evidence of being related), they have to do with us being social animals and how we perceive those in authority over us. We're far more likely to accuse ourselves of wrongdoing with the right type of suggestions than those with more power. Multiple studies have shown that most people can be convinced they themselves committed a horrible crime within hours. People will create elaborate stories of thing of things they 'remember' that didn't happen, sometimes protecting others in doing so, with the right techniques. Memories aren't as reliable as we would like, but that doesn't mean we should act like all accusations might be false memories (in fact, they tend to only be brought up in cases of sexual violence...) or that using that to defend someone in such cases doesn't have a massive history of harming victims to protect the powerful.

uokhunni No one can get fired unless there is clear evidence. I think we do not know enough to judge this yet.

I know someone who worked with the Old Vic and at least in theatre circles KS behaviour was an open secret. I've known about it for years and I'm no Hollywood insider. The swift action against KS and HW is directly related to how well known their behaviour was and yes the companies are hypocrites. Others who have been accused (even recently) definitely have not been treated as badly and will likely survive with careers intact

Ironically isn't Anthony Rapp the young guy in it? The brothers friend? shock

Yes, it was AR's character's interference that led to Brad getting stabbed in the foot by the Lords of Hell on the tube.

Epic.

Compleate speculation on my part but anyone commiting suicide 'because' of an accusation smacks of guilt to me. Having been a victim of csa of anyone accussed me of that i would be crushed but massively motivated to clear my name. I would be down the police station demanding it be investigated, demanding jk style lie detector tests, giving interviews to anyone who requested, anything i could think of. The horror any innocent adult has at the idea of others thinking they would be a sex offender motivates fighting not giving up imho.

So as far as that goes, film and tv studios are covering their own investments.

But they weren't bothered enough to cover their investments by not hiring him when, apparently, everyone knew what he was like.

Cs also wasn't 'fired' he 'agreed' to step aside which is what happens when they realise there's too much evidence against them. 'Volantarily' stepping aside allows it all to remain hush hush until police prosecute, at which point alegations would be made clear for his legal team to address. The fact he didn't state his innocent in his statement smacks of guilt. It doesn't matter what sex offense anyone would accusse me of i know 100% i would be innocent and would scream that 24/7

people.com/tv/ed-westwick-being-investigated-lapd-sexual-assault-allegation/amp/?xid=amprecirc3

Another story unfolding - apparently 2 actresses have accused Ed Westwick of Rape

Complete speculation on my part but anyone committing suicide 'because' of an accusation smacks of guilt to me.

How do you know it was "because of an allegation" ? Did they tell you personally ? Or are you confusing correlation with causation ?

It doesn't matter what sex offence anyone would accuse me of i know 100% i would be innocent and would scream that 24/7

As does almost every other person accused of a sex offence ...

Lots of guilty people scream they are innocent too.

Indeed there are plenty of jokes about every person in prison being innocent, because many people do not admit their guilt, even when the evidence is overwhelming. That is even more the case for crimes that most people see as repugnant.

Where did i say screaming innocemce prooves it? I said an adult who is innocent not fighting to proove that doesn't make sence and a suicide so quickly after several accusations smacks of guilt.

I said an adult who is innocent not fighting to proove that doesn't make sence and a suicide so quickly after several accusations smacks of guilt.

Or mental health issues ?

bit odd to keep linking to more and more stories OP when you are worried about the reputation of alleged rapists

Mh problems effect abusers too you know, mh problems aren't mutually exclusive to guilt.

Just the one story - and I feel it supports my point about the current climate.

what point does it support - 2 women have come forward and alleged they were raped - should they keep stum? or should it go unreported?

Please don't make what I am saying into something else. There's no need.

Nowhere did I say that or insinuate that.

but I simply asked you what point it proved?