To think Innocent until proving guilty doesn't exist in this society anymore?

[adventuresinbabysitting]

Kevin Spacey's career is over.

There is no proof! If these things aren't true, where is the justice in that? I just don't get it. By all means go after him and seek justice if he has wronged you in a horrible way.

I know people will disagree, but I think it's wrong to be removing him from films etc yet.

The issue I have with it being an open secret is that if his conduct was as awful as the allegations are suggesting, why the fuck did Netflix/Ridley Scott/whoever agree to work with him in the first place? They were perfectly happy to work with him while he was actively and not-very-discretely (allegedly) sexually assaulting colleagues, but it's only that it's come into the open that they're looking to distance themselves.

But presumably there never was any such thing as 'innocent until proven guilty' outside of court anyway. People who knew the accused or moved in the same circles as them, or knew someone who knew them would always have listened to gossip, passed it on, made their own minds up about what was true. It's just that media and social media have made it much quicker and much more widespread and public. Same principle though, and based in same human nature.

you are only EVER innocent if you didn't commit the crime.

Even if you go to court and are found not guilty, if you did the crime you are guilty of that crime - there just hasn't been enough evidence to the court to PROVE you did it beyond reasonable doubt. A not guilt verdict is not a declaration of innocence.

It's ridiculous. He's already being wiped from films and fired from TV shows before being convicted so yes he's guilty without being proven so I would say. Unfair.

Statisticly the vast majority of sexual offenders are never prosecuted let alone found guilty. Doesn't mean they don't exist or that they pose any less of a risk than the tiny %who are. Isn't the figure allways quoted on here that it takes 50 women to make alegations about an abuser before it effects his career. I imagine male victims are believed much quicker, but then there are other factors that can effect whether they come forward or not.

A not guilt verdict is not a declaration of innocence

Yes, so much this. Many many many sex offenders don’t even have to stand up in court. Doesn’t mean they didn’t do it though.

I would laugh at the notion that Kevin Spacey has been treated unfairly if it wasn’t such a tragic reflection on society and how victims of sexual assault are viewed.

For every John Leslie there are 1000's of Johnny Depps, Rolf Harris' and Woody Allens.

re John Leslie he has had so many allegations made against him now, though never found guilty. At the very least you would think he would learn enough about his behaviour towards women to learn and modify it - clearly he is doing something wrong.

I think the fact his series has been cancelled and he's being erased from Ridley Scott's new film means that his past behaviour is common knowledge. Rumours get started for a reason sometimes they're malicious other times though there is a lot of truth behind them. And I happen to believe what I've heard about Kevin spacey personally, same with Harvey Weinstein and certain others.

Also worth noting if someone is on trial and is found not guilty they are found not guilty in the eyes of the law. It does not mean that they are innocent.

Rolf Harris's career is fucked though isn't it?

Rolf Harris was convicted and jailed though.

@adventuresinbabysitting - the fact that a trial hasn’t happened yet doesn’t mean there isn’t any proof - all it means is that any proof has not yet been tested in court.

And the absence of proof doesn’t mean the allegations aren’t true. Consider an incident where someone gropes another person - this is a sexual assault. No-one witnesses it, there is no CCTV, and there will probably be no scientific evidence - DNA or fingerprints - does this mean the assault did not happen? Of course not. But the victim of this assault deserves to be believed.

the presumption of innocence is all about the legal burden of proof and legal processes- ie the burden is on prosecutor to prove a crime was committed (rather than a defendant having to prove they didn't commit a crime).

Its not at all about people actually being innocent until proven guilty - that would be an utter nonsense.

the problem with sexual assaults/rapes is that all too often there are just 2 people present and it's a he said/she said (or he said/he said) situation. people in power are more likely to be "believed" or given the benefit of the doubt.

Just look at what Cory Feldman has been put through (he has talked about sexual abuse he suffered, Cory Haim suffered) - he is someone who spoke out for years and he has been widely discredited and maligned by nearly everyone - his name became a joke. Yet it appears he was right the whole time. And others knew this and chose to leave him alone and isolated rather than back him up.

I agree Gherkin those high up in the industry that knew it was going on but turned a blind eye and continued to employ KS putting others in danger are just as bad in my book.

The difference with KS with regards to innocent until proven guilty is that he never denied the allegations as far as I am aware.

However, I do agree that when allegations are made that the accused should know what they are accused of and have a chance to defend themselves. There was a sad case this week where a Welsh MP took his own life following allegations that saw him sacked from his party without even been told what the allegations were. He never had the opportunity to defend himself.

John Leslie had done Blue Peter and This Morning and frankly was a bit shit. I doubt his career was going to set the world on fire. And if that's the only man we can scare up that's had their 'career' 'ruined' let's stick on the other side...

ALLEGEDLY... Johnny Depp, Micheal Fassbender, Charlie Sheen, Ben Affleck, Dustin Hoffman, Jeremy Piven, Woody Allen and TWO PRESIDENTS OF THE UNITED STATES. Including the current incumbent. And that's not even the full list. By a country mile.

Rolf Harris's career is fucked though isn't it?
Yes it is now, but how long did it take? He wasn't charged/jailed until he was 84 in 2014, for offences that happened many years earlier.

Also worth noting if someone is on trial and is found not guilty they are found not guilty in the eyes of the law. It does not mean that they are innocent.

Not a good idea to actually say that in public though, since for the purposes of libel and slander (in the UK) they are innocent.

The whole thing smacks of the crucible to me.

These things gather momentum and suddenly everyone is a witch.

I am not excusing sexual assault, but sometimes that isn't exactly what has happened. And we don't know. We just presume. Open secret? What even is that in the context of sexual assault?!

there was a case a few years ago when the courts went as far as to actively declare some one was innocent - but I can't remember what it was?

"suddenly everyone is a witch."

Are you a Daily Mail writer OP? This tired trope is all too often used when people are accused of sexual assault.

Yes it is now, but how long did it take? He wasn't charged/jailed until he was 84 in 2014, for offences that happened many years earlier.

When we're the offences first reported? I'm only asking because (from what I've read) allegations about Spacey have been well known for years but that wasn't the same with RH. I may be wrong though.

MrsTP - I agree with you about JL tbh, but I'm not sure I rate the others much higher!

I am not excusing sexual assault, but sometimes that isn't exactly what has happened.

Even when it comes out of their own mouths, as in the case of Ched Evans and Donald Trump, people will believe they aren't guilty. That is the exact opposite of a witch hunt.

on "witch hunts":

"Centuries ago, “witch” was used to describe an evil and otherworldly oppressor, who was put on trial due to people’s irrational fears that they could become victim to women’s black magic. Today, women are still portrayed as “witches” possessing sexually-potent power, condemning men to victimhood. The term is used to portray perpetrators of abuse as unwitting victims to a modern and sophisticated cult of feminist troublemakers. In an unusual twist, men who put women on trial for being witches historically are now defining themselves as victims. Victimhood in masculinity has gained currency with resounding arguments that feminism is defunct and the opposite sex is now the real victim.

But men are not victims of a moral panic; they are being held to account for sexual harassment, abuse and rape."

uk.news.yahoo.com/witch-hunt-happening-now-not-105257806.html

"Firstly, this is Westminster in 2017, not 17th century Salem. Men are not being made scapegoats for society’s ills, they are being called out for inappropriate behaviour. Witch hunt is a term steeped in patriarchal history. It was used to victimise innocent women, who were drowned or burnt to test their guilt - guilt over something that didn’t actually exist. Witches aren’t real; but the climate of sexual harassment in Westminster is."
uk.news.yahoo.com/sexminster-pestminster-witch-hunt-why-211346791.html

Moving away from allegations, what about the people with actual judicial convictions for domestic or sexual abuse which have noteably not destroyed their careers? Loveable curmudgeon Geoff Boycott? Cheeky chappy Tuffers? Northern legend Andy Kershaw? Mumsnet fave Boy George?

I see what you mean lurkinghusband but I stand by that comment. Seen more than one person I know bravely go to court to give evidence against their abuser and their abuser get found not guilty. I still believe their victims. Just like I know that I have been raped many many times and just because I didn't press charges against the perpetrator doesn't mean he didn't do it. It means I'm terrified of him being found not guilty (assuming it would even get to a trial) and everyone saying "ahh well he's innocent" when I KNOW he's not. The justice system doesn't always deliver actual justice.