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AIBU?

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Original poster

To think the Brexit referendum result should be set aside if allegations of corruption are proved?

376 replies

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 03/11/2017 09:41

Vanity Fair article about this

Just like the US election last year, there is more and more evidence emerging now that some parts of the Leave campaign were fundedy in very shady ways. Also, social media was manipulated to feed personalised fake news to voters before the referendum. Even the ludicrous #usepens seems to have been pushed by Russian bots as a way of undermining confidence in the electoral process.

We are teetering on the brink of making the biggest political mistake of my lifetime (and I'm in my 50s and remember a good many other bad times). That's bad and bad enough, but if it wasn't even a legitimate vote surely it should just be set aside?

OP posts:
helpmeseethefunnysideplease · 04/11/2017 12:57

I think it should be set aside full stop. The EU partially redesigned possibly, but the UK still a part of it.

IMO we belong at the heart of our geo-political block - and not across the Atlantic or anywhere else.

OliviaPopeRules · 04/11/2017 13:03

Same article says so ahead 52%, attempt to reverse 32% and don’t know 16%.
I’m still not sure how you get to a remain vote winning a new referendum.

Vitalogy · 04/11/2017 13:05

It does develop your critical thinking skills. The education system doesn't seem to encourage this.

allegretto · 04/11/2017 13:08

Olivia - I was contesting your illogical statement that Leave would be likely to win in a second referendum. There is a difference between what the poll said and what you seem to think it said ie what people want now and how they would behave in a hypothetical referendum (that they don't want). I have already explained this in the previous two answers to you. I'm sorry but I don't think I can go through it all again, so please just reread what I actually wrote. Thanks.

amber90 · 04/11/2017 13:08

Actually, the only reason brexiters lose their minds at the thought of another vote is because they know they'd lose now. That's a fact. The whole brexit campaign was based on fear, lies and racism. Meh it blows my mind.

CoteDAzur · 04/11/2017 13:08

“why should people who live in Britain have their lives dictated to be people who live and have lived in another country for a significant period of time.”

Because it’s their lives that are affected by Brexit, too. Far more than would be the life of retired seniors living on their savings who voted Leave in large numbers, actually.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 04/11/2017 13:11

Its not evidence...exactly what i said

Once again I agree; however when the LSE created their infamous survey analysis, we saw plenty of comments - on here and elsewhere - from folk who took the figures as proof because it suited

Bearing in mind, though, that a 64% 18-24 turnout is the highest anyone's managed to chisel out, I still think it's pretty poor if that's anything like accurate

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 04/11/2017 13:15

puzzled

Well compared to the other stats i think its good

Its definitely on a par and i cant quite see why they should be held to a higher standard than other adults

And as we both seem to agree with the 'unreliability' of such polls i cant really understand why you are taking the figure of 64% as gospel

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 04/11/2017 13:16

I spelt 'polls' as 'poles' so glad i checked Grin

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 04/11/2017 13:16

I think it’s very poor turnout it should have been at least 75%

And London has one of the lowest turnouts which I also find disappointing

OliviaPopeRules · 04/11/2017 13:16

Thanks I can read and don’t need to be patronised to.
You may not think it is an indication of how people will vote, I do, it’s called having a different opinion.

cluelessnewmum · 04/11/2017 13:17

If a second referendum was called it would be the biggest affront to democracy in our modern history, in my opinion.

Imagine what the prospect of a second referendum would to to negotiatations - the EU for want us to stay (have said so repeatedly, we are the 2nd largest net contributor), so they would have every incentive to give us a bad deal.

I believe that the leave vote will still be strong for the following reasons -

  1. The likes of Junker, Barnier, Macron have all responded to the increasing fragmentation in Europe with 'more Europe', ie an ever closer union, a federal state. There is no option to stay semi detached.
  1. The EU have treated this country appallingly, with contemporary other since negotiations began, I feel the country's national pride will kick in to reject staying wedded to it.
  1. The problems haven't gone away, a key reason for many to vote leave was free movement, unregulated immigration, the handling of the refugee crisis, Turkey joining the EU... All still there.
  1. The pound may have fallen (which has advantages) but the economy is still strong, the armageddon that was threatened didn't happen.

There may well be enough people who are so angry about a second referendum the vote leave count will be higher, not lower.

midnightmisssuki · 04/11/2017 13:19

Oh dear not this AGAIN. Please just let it go - people have voted (AGES AGO). I thought this was a democracy. Calling for second; third; fourth election - where does it end just because you don't like it?!

OliviaPopeRules · 04/11/2017 13:20

Because it’s their lives that are affected by Brexit, too. Far more than would be the life of retired seniors living on their savings who voted Leave in large numbers, actually.

So retired seniors living in Spain who have no intention of ever coming back to the UK should dictate how people in the UK have to live.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 04/11/2017 13:21

democracy means that you can discuss and debate

It does not mean sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up

I dont want a second referendum but if one happens i will vote again

Binkybix · 04/11/2017 13:25

Despite the pound falling our exports are weaker. It’s odd.

Anyway, I don’t think a second vote is undemocratic at all. How can a vote with more information and to a different question be undemocratic? Worried about it giving a different answer is more like it.

The thing that worries me isn’t the principle, but the logistics. I’m not sure how it would fit in with the timetable or negotiation. Would a ‘no’ vote mean no to leaving, or go back and negotiate a different deal?

What a fucking mess, quite frankly.

allegretto · 04/11/2017 13:27

So retired seniors living in Spain who have no intention of ever coming back to the UK should dictate how people in the UK have to live.

If people living abroad could have voted (an election promise made and broken by the Tories btw) they would not be "dictating" how people in the UK live, they would be participating in a democratic process which directly affected them as UK citizens. As it stands any "dictating" has been the other way round as only UK citizens in the UK (or recently in the UK) have been allowed to change the lives of thousands of UK citizens without a vote. How is that fair?

allegretto · 04/11/2017 13:29

You may not think it is an indication of how people will vote, I do, it’s called having a different opinion.

I was not trying to be patronising but you have missed the point and I don't know how many other ways I can explain it!

OliviaPopeRules · 04/11/2017 13:38

Allegretto - I think it’s fair because if you have lived out of the UK for more than 15 years you are unlikely to return and presumably are happy in the country you live. You will be entitled to stay in that country and live as any other citizen of that country (this is v close to being agreed).
While it does impact expats, particularly in the EU,I think it it fair that if you left the UK 15 years ago that you are not as invested in it’s future as people living here and paying tax here.

allegretto · 04/11/2017 13:41

You will be entitled to stay in that country and live as any other citizen of that country (this is v close to being agreed).

You have no idea what you are talking about.

scaryteacher · 04/11/2017 13:41

Allegretto If people living abroad could have voted I do live abroad and did vote (to leave). You can live abroad and vote, as long as you haven't been away for more than 15 years iirc, or more, if you are a crown servant or the trailing spouse of the crown servant.

OliviaPopeRules · 04/11/2017 13:42

Actually I do as an immigrant from an EU country I actually know a lot about it.

allegretto · 04/11/2017 13:44

Scaryteacher - I couldn't vote as I have been abroad for over 15 years. That doesn't mean that I am not invested in the future of the UK or don't have plans to go back to the UK. I have work ties and family ties with the UK.

allegretto · 04/11/2017 13:46

Actually I do as an immigrant from an EU country I actually know a lot about it.

If that is the case, then maybe you shouldn't post misleading information. You should know that not all EU countries have the same rules for taking citizenship. And I am so happy to learn that everything is very close to being agreed. You are obviously also an expert on the Brexit negotiations too.

MissionItsPossible · 04/11/2017 14:14

Humpsfor20yards apologies (from yesterday) I thought your "how condescending" post was towards mine when it was meant to be anything but!

As for the recent posts towards polls: polls aren't accurate. If polls were accurate we would still be part of the EU and Hilary Clinton would be president of the USA. I could ask ten people who voted leave if they would consider voting Remain in a 2nd referendum if we were able to stop freedom of movement and stop paying money to the EU and if eight said yes, could spin it as: 80% OF BREXIT VOTERS WOULD NOW VOTE LEAVE IF THERE WAS A 2ND REFERENDUM. The polls are inaccurate, unhelpful and unnecessary.