Sarah Vine: ‘If this hysterical Westminster witch hunt is what a world run by women looks like, count me out’

[gluteustothemaximus]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5037545/SARAH-VINE-hysterical-Westminster-witch-hunt.html#ixzz4xIfYLwOP

Sorry. I should know better than to get wound up by the daily mail, or Sarah Vine.

Lines like: What started as a WhatsApp group of parliamentary employees swapping notes on their bosses has turned into a mob of aggrieved ‘victims’ claiming a million sexual micro-aggressions against a number of unnamed individuals who, it seems, are not even allowed to know where they are supposed to have overstepped the mark.

Poor menz. Not knowing what constitutes sexual harassment.

Or perhaps that depends on your point of view. Because there is a strong cultural and generational element to this, too. Most of the accused are over 40; most of the accusers are in their 20s. In other words, it’s the revenge of the millennials, many of whom will have had their senses of humour surgically removed at university.

Riiight. So anyone who is harassed, doesn’t have a sense of humour if they don’t laugh it off?

Like that stupid ‘Metoo’ hashtag that started trending after the Harvey Weinstein scandal broke, these are not real expressions of emancipation: they are empty, attention-seeking gestures

I tweeted about my rape. I can assure you it wasn’t attention seeking.

AIBU to be sad that some women, like sarah, feel like this?

God, we have along way to go.

Unsurprising. Sarah Vine is a troll, like Katie Hopkins.

Also unsurprised about Edwina Curry, who was never great on equality issues to say the least!

You hear Ruth Davidson and she seems genuinely passionate about making parliament a safe place for all to work at She's a political opportunist just like most of them.
Andrew Neil 'as thick as mince'? He really isn't.

But keep fighting the good fight, Pannn, if you successfully tear apart each individual woman who alleges something happened, the big picture will just fade away into the background, and you can all carry on as before

I agree with you Sonic.
It is amazing how many people, men and women [like the odious Sarah Vine but it's the DM so no great surprise there], are absolutely desperate to maintain the patriarchal status quo.

Well, I hate oto disappoint them but I think that particular cat is now out of the bag.

As for poor men not knowing how to appropriately touch a women they want to make a pass at.... honestly how ridiculous. Fallon should have known it was wrong as he was married at the time. That’s a pretty big clue.

Or how about - Men just do not touch women. Particularly in a professional context apart from perfectly respectable handshake... as you might do with a male coleague for example.

I seem to manage perfectly well never touching my male colleagues or clients except possibly a handshake as above.

Before anyone jumps in, I do realise that men and women in a consensual adult relationship will touch more initimately than a handshake... But this is not the context of the Michael Fallon story... who was pushed before more rumours and allegations come out imho.

Yesterday, I wanted to take an axe to the telly just so I could chop up loathsome Isabel Oakeshott (she was saying that groping etc is normal in any workplace the size of Westminster, ffs). Today I'm between incandescent rage and hopeless despair at the sheer number of women in the media who are harassment apologists.

Self-hating Tory lackeys, the lot of them. (I know it's not a party political issue, but the Labour party was at least quick to suspend the 2 MPs about whom allegations have been made).

she was saying that groping etc is normal in any workplace the size of Westminster, ffs

She's right. It is normal.

That's the problem, Isabel. Normal can still be wrong. Wrong, immoral and in some/many cases, illegal.

I just love the Daily Mail comments with their dire warnings of women ending up single [gasp] if they don't stop picking on the poor menz! Like that's such a dreadful fate. If it's a toss-up between singledom on the one hand and partnering up with a sleazy groper on the other, hand me that ready meal for one, frankly. Although amazingly, most men - even most MPs, and I've met many! - manage to get by without feeling up young women at work, strangely enough.

To be honest, it's surprising that these revelations are surprising, because Westminster has all the ingredients for this shit to go on. Massive gender imbalance, massive power imbalance (MPs being right at the top), long hours, a drinking culture with onsite bars, lots of long corridors and dark corners (have got lost myself in there a few times), a real bubble-like feeling that makes it feel strangely isolated. Long working hours, lots of intelligent, ambitious, but also young people, all of whom want to make their marks and careers. And no real HR-type oversight. It's the perfect environment for a lech (or worse) to exploit and to thrive in. This has to change.

She's right though. This whole thing is ridiculous. Women need to learn to stand up for themselves instead of whining and engaging in this #metoo rubbish. It's one thing if you have been the victim of sexual violence and you feel scared and alone but to then act like groping or unwanted sexual advances is even remotely the same thing is just wrong. If you don't want to be groped then slap away the CFs hand, don't act like you are some kind of victim and ffs, whatever you do, don't try to jump into the same boat as victims of sexual violence. It's not the same.

Sarah Vine is vile.

Ttbb you ARE a victim of unwanted advances though if someone gropes you, you ARE a victim of a man who thought that was ok. Why is it so awful to say that? It's sexual harrassment.

And could you use a tiny, tiny bit of imagination to see why a young woman wouldn't feel brave enough to slap away the hand of her older boss? How do you stand up for yourself if your boss thinks this is fair game?

The tide is turning at last. Yes fairly minor things will get whipped up in the frenzy but if it finally knocks the white male priveledge and everyday sexism thing on the head

Hear hear!!
I really don’t believe a single person is on the “list” and resigned because they “only” touched a woman's knee. There is much, much more to this.
And people stating it is all a travesty and witch hunt are trying to deflect attention away from the actual problem. They and their kind have power in more ways than one, and they trying to cling on to it.

I mean, imagine a world where woman could carry on with their lives without being harressed or sexually assaulted. We woundnt want that now would we?.

Maintain away Sonic. It IS interesting that that is a take on it I mention. Along with a host of others that I haven't mentioned.

I don't think it's that sexual abuse was more tolerated, but that there was (and probably still is) a tacit principle that the more wealthy and powerful you are the less the rules apply to you. It is the latter that is changing.

Back in the 1980s when I was at school I was sexually assaulted by a school caretaker. I told my parents, was believed, the next day he was gone - he lost his job, but there was no criminal prosecution.

What he did was no different from what a number of celebrities got away with at the time. The difference being that he was a poor "nobody" - society knew full well that these things were wrong, they just gave celebrities (and MPs and business bosses and anyone else with power) a free pass.

I also think this reaction is tied up with some dismay from a certain type of woman who has used sexual power to get where she is today and would teach any daughter or mentee to do the same. In this brave new world where women are treated with respect and dignity, these tactics won't be possible. The grabby gropey workplace culture was contributed to by women who saw it as an opportunity to flirt themselves into career advancement and this behaviour helped to make it miserable for those of us who just wanted to be respected.

Apparently Fallon resigned over remarks he made to Andrea Leadsom:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/02/michael-fallon-resigned-defence-secretary-andrea-leadsom

A couple of things strike me about this wave of sexual harassment allegations. One is that women are accused of two things: either making not enough fuss (why did you keep quiet? Why didn't you report it years ago?) or of making too much fuss (women are always being touched inappropriately at work - what's the big deal?). Obviously what we need is some helpful Daily Mail journalist who can tell us exactly what the right amount of fuss to make is, and when.

The other is that male reporting of harassment is following a similar pattern to that by women. One man makes an allegation of something Kevin Spacey did years ago - then a whole load of other men come out of the woodwork and say the same thing. When one person speaks out, it gives others confidence to do the same. But these men aren't, it seems, being subjected to the "not enough/too much" accusations that women are. No-one, apparently, says to them: "You'll never find a boyfriend if you carry on like this." I wonder why.

She's right though. This whole thing is ridiculous. No, she really isn't right, she's victim-blaming and minimising.

Women need to learn to stand up for themselves instead of whining and engaging in this #metoo rubbish. Part of 'standing up' for onesself is identifying when you've been harassed and/or assaulted. Saying it aloud or online is standing up for yourself - or, at least, the first step.

It's one thing if you have been the victim of sexual violence and you feel scared and alone but to then act like groping or unwanted sexual advances is even remotely the same thing is just wrong. As has been pointed out ad nauseam, inappropriate touching and groping is often where it starts - it's testing and pushing the boundaries.

If you don't want to be groped then slap away the CFs hand, Don't be so fucking stupid. If this is your superior at work, a customer, some other powerful individual how on earth would you get away with slapping them? You risk losing your job or other serious repercussions.

don't act like you are some kind of victim and ffs, whatever you do, don't try to jump into the same boat as victims of sexual violence. It's not the same. It may not be the same in terms of effect but it sure as hell demonstrates the same attitude in the perpetrator.

The 'list' is already available on Twitter.
But to the pp who said that labour have suspended people as soon as allegation made, and Tories haven't- are you suggesting that everyone on the list is suspended? There are people on it who are accused of 'fornicating with another MP' so they should be suspended for sleeping with a (equal) colleague?

And one accused MP has their victim named. The victim has publicly stated that nothing happened and the list is wrong. That the MP did nothing.

The list is gossip- some of it may be true, some of it alleges dreadful behaviour. But unless there is someone actually complaining, I'd be wary of suspending people just cos they're named on it.

Can you just imagine a show with Isabel Oakeshott, Julie Hartley-Brewer, Katie Hopkins and Sarah Vine on it?

Throw in say Boris Johnson (I do wonder if he is on the list?)

Hypothetically, what would I search for on twitter if I wanted to see it?

If you don't want to be groped then slap away the CFs hand

Don't be so fucking stupid. If this is your superior at work, a customer, some other powerful individual how on earth would you get away with slapping them? You risk losing your job or other serious repercussions

I hate to imagine how much harassment is going on in certain industries where workers are desparate for a job and have little power or anyone to turn to. And who have little voice.

The brilliant #MeToo campaign is not whining or attention seeking, it’s the first step for many who for their own very valid reasons were unable report or did report and weren’t believed/were ridiculed.

When your job pays vital bills to keep a roof over your family’s head and food on the table, you will always take care not to do anything that could mean you get sacked.

This whole issue is essentially about abuse of power. Most men don’t behave as badly as the Harvey Weinstein’s of the world but there is a slippery slope that has been unseen by many men who have simply take their lead from other guys who have got away it. I.e it became the cultural norm and to be seen to be against that marked men out and they will experience much of the same as women and be marked out as ‘not really one of us’.

It is the insidiousness of it that is really appalling and something that most women (and men without power either) have depressingly just accepted, worked round, warned each other about the worst and occasionally called them out knowing that most of the time they will be shot down for doing so in all but a few instances.

If nothing else happen in this particular battle it has at least shined a light on a whole range of behaviours that are not acceptable, given courage to a lot of people to speak out where they may not have done before, and hopefully helped those in positions of power understand the responsibilities that go with their privileges.

This isn’t a female problem for women to solve, we all (men and women) need to pick up the baton and do our bit to improve things, not just for future generations but in our own families, workplaces and communities.

Boris is almost too obvious to be on the list. Like, he's probably so busy with his mistresses that he doesn't actually have time to sexually harass any of his researchers.

And one accused MP has their victim named. The victim has publicly stated that nothing happened and the list is wrong. That the MP did nothing.

This might be 100% correct and the MP didn't do anything in this case.

However, don't assume (in general) that just because a victim says it didn't happen, that that means it didn't. There are many reasons why a woman might say she wasn't assaulted/harassed when she was. Ranging from her not wanting a newspaper digging into her past, to not wanting her family and friends to know what happened, to not wanting to lose her job because the man (and his cronies) are still much more powerful than she, to feeling like she was at fault (which she isn't, obviously), to being in denial that she wasn't a willing participant in the encounter.

As a male in his early 40s I find all this 'men don't know where they are anymore' and going on about 'political correctness gone mad' bollocks that one sees on social media to be bemusing. It's really not difficult, if you treat women with respect and dignity (essentially the way one wants to be treated oneself) then there is nothing to worry about.

Exactly this! What is so difficult about understanding that? All this whining on about not knowing how to act with women now in case you get accused of sexual harassment, I mean, really? I'm assuming the men that say this manage not to sexually harass other men, so what is so massively difficult about treating women the same?