Abuse for not punishing my kids!?

[pinkliquorice]

I have never found traditional ‘punishments’ eg time out, sent to room etc to be helpful so my kids aren’t punished (of course they are spoken to and made to apologise when they misbehave. )
Over the last few years I have gotten in numerous arguments with my MiL, who is very strict and used to heavily punish DP, I have explained to her our parenting style and told her not to punish/shout at my children.
But she has continued to and has even claimed it is abuse that I don’t.
AIBU to keep this argument up unless she minds her own business and stops punishing my kids?
Would you let anyone else punish your children?

And I take it your kids wouldn't be upset, frustrated etc if they had to go home from toddler group/the park etc before they wanted to due to their behaviour?

You seem very single minded

Two kids fighting over a toys
There's a choice - play nicely or lose the toy
The consequence for not playing nicely is loss of the toy

They have been spoken to calmly and consistently and they know the consequence of behaving badly

Time out, kids getting angry or fighting or in a temper, timeout is a clam place to clam down, it's not a punishment it's a time to calm and regroup
Shouting, sometimes you need to shout to be heard over noisy kids, or immediate danger and shouldn't be ruled out completely (and I'm talkimg about shouting about the situation not at the child) a sharp NO if they are putting a hand in the fire or something

Kids often ply up when there's another adult in the house, probably because mums attention is taken away and they want constant attention, that's normal.

Sometimes when people are busy there needs to be a quick end to a situation, otherwise things can get out of hand and worse, this is why schools issue comsequences - kids distrusting lessons - they are removed to calm and let others learn, detention is iasually for time wasting or homework catch-up a,

There's a time and place for these things, don't dismiss them

Well congratulations OP. You are indeed the perfect parent that us mere mortals can only dream of being. Of course we are all raising resentful future adults because we send a child to their room for constantly arguing and bickering. Silly me. I'll let my DCs continue to shout, argue and bicker with each other because all I need to do is talk to them until they get it. Oh yes, I do that too. Funnily enough, it doesn't change a thing. Maybe children are individuals and one size parenting doesn't fit all. There's an idea for you to ponder whilst you look down on the rest of us.

I was punished as a child and it's not easy to admit because I love my parents and as parents go they are probably at least in the top 10% of great parents, so it's not easy to recognise how they fucked up and how it's affected me long-term. I used to be of the attitude that punishment is good and never harmed me until I read up on the long term implications of punishment and realised I'm a textbook case of the damage caused. So yes it had an enormous negative impact on me as an adult. I have a lot of fortitude but push me too hard and I have a furious temper that can explode when frustration and impotence pushes me over the edge. I have a desperate urge to lash out physically when I feel that bad and it's borne out of being slapped as a child or put into time-out (which was not a term when I was little but the basics were the same).

I internalised what I now recognise as emotionally abusive criticism which shaped the person I am. I have a deep desire to fix other people's injustices so I can help them through their frustration and impotence. Sometimes that's healthy, I was NGO staff for most of my career. But often it's deeply self-destructive and has seen me through a string of physically abusive relationships with damaged me I was sure my love could fix.

I don't blame my parents, they are wonderful, warm loving people who did a better job of parenting than their parents, who were also loving parents did for them. It was just life in the 70s and 80s, like their life was in the 50s and 60s. But there is no fucking excuse for it nowadays. There is a wealth of easily accessible information on the damage caused by punishment and the much more effective alternatives. We know better so there is no excuse for not doing better.

And as not acceptable as it is to say it, it's absolutely obvious to me that my method is the right one. There are probably children in the world as good, kind, generous, caring, confident, loving, empathetic, emotionally smart and aware as my DS but there are none who are better because there is no actual way he could improve on any of those behaviours. He is literally as amazing as it's possible to be and yet he somehow actually gets better on a near daily basis. He's had an entire two tantrums in his entire life and both were when he was sick and I pushed him too hard. He always thinks of others in his actions but is confident enough to hold his own ground when he needs to. His insight into others' actions and feelings is astonishing for anyone to have, never mind a small child with an abusive drug addict of a father.

I think you might have missed arroganace off the list of the damage your parents did 😂

I think having a child sit and calm down in a toddler group for a few minutes before letting them carry on playing is likely to be better for their social skills than removing them from every situation they struggle to cope in.
Much lazier to just go home than deal with difficult behaviour imo.

I don't know who brought up that scenario in the first place but I just used it as it was being used already. For one, don't be obtuse it's obvious and undermines any point you might have. Nobody would go straight from one instance of bad behaviour to leaving the group. It would be a last step after other solutions have failed repeatedly. And two, I don't know how it would work in practice, I've never experienced consistent bad behaviour, ever. To misquote Chales M Shulz, one time I thought my DS was being really overbearing and careless with other kids, then ignoring me when I tried to talk to him about it and I had to get really firm with him, but it turned out to be another child causing the problem.

My experience with timeout has been that the child on timeout calms down enough to seem ready to return to play but is still burning over with frustration and humiliation and almost immediately does something super shitty to one or more of the the other kids, which the parent overlooks or ignores. It's out and out cognitive dissonance that parents insist it works when it's clear as day that it only exacerbates problems.

Keepitasitis - this thread started with the op being told she was doing it wrong by a disciplinarian- so rather than op looking down on anyone, she is merely fighting her corner - but disciplinarians generally seem to think they know best!

The difference between consequences/boundaries and punishment is that punishment is unnatural and involves the parent/authority figure choosing to inflict pain/distress. People who take the punishment approach or favour it (particularly on MN) often seem to have absolutely no sense of proportion and no real understanding - the answer to everything is to punish more and punish harder. So you get children who answered back having their property confiscated for weeks, toddlers' birthday parties being cancelled a month or two after an episode of bad behaviour (which is ridiculous as the child will learn NOTHING from it). Then you get the DC who have done something wrong at school and eg been kept in at playtime: when they tell the parents, the parents proceed to punish again. (The apparently-fake thread about the teenage DD who had a fight was swarming with these nutters trying to outdo each other with increasing ways to make the DD suffer...).
You don't earn 'respect' by bullying your kids. What you earn, deservedly, is their lasting contempt.

And also add rude to the list.
But I'm sure a parent so convinced that everyone else is wrong and that she has found the secret to being a perfect parent and bringing up one of, if not THE, all round best child in the world has brought up a child absolutely brimming with empathy! So brimming in fact that it isn't possible a more empathetic child exists

I think you might have missed arroganace off the list of the damage your parents did 😂

And there in lies the problem. You come on and out and out bully the OP with a load of bullshit that's disproven by modern psychology and then try to bully anyone that has the confidence to actually describe how their parenting affects their child in positive way. The thing is, that in recognising all of the negative ways that my childhood shaped me and in striving to ensure I don't do that to my son, I've been able to work on a lot of my own damage. So tbh, that kind of pettying bullying crap just rolls off.

I don't know if the OP is doing a great job with her kids or not, but I know the methodology she describes it 100% sound. I also know that by having a single parent-only child dynamic with my son that in many ways I have an easier job of it than someone with more children and a spouse with a different perspective. While the workload is intense as we are often each other's only option for support, play, interaction, etc, it's much easier to ensure absolute consistency. Though I have to fight for it as my drug addict ex loves to pretend he's sober and make a show of parenting while constantly endangering us both while I'd let him.

You MIL is wrong to interferw full stop.

Can i ask the OP and those who are agreeing wuth her parenting style what you do if the children don't stop doing the thing they shouldnt be e.g. if your two youngest children are fighting with each other and you tell them they should stop and they continue to fight, what do you do then? I would intervene and separate them and they would have time away from each other which may be in their bedrooms, sitting on the step, time out or whatever. What would you do?

"Punishments are likely to produce mentally ill people or criminals. It depends on how much they are violent."

Wow that is some crazy statement!

Society needs a certain level of discipline to function in a civilised way.

Children who grow up with no rules, no boundaries, no respect or healthy fear of authority tend to be utterly useless unless they are floating around in their own little bubbles.

And also add rude to the list. But I'm sure a parent so convinced that everyone else is wrong and that she has found the secret to being a perfect parent and bringing up one of, if not THE, all round best child in the world has brought up a child absolutely brimming with empathy! So brimming in fact that it isn't possible a more empathetic child exists hmm

Oh diddums. Did you confuse honest with rude???

Ok actually that was a bit rude but tbh, it's hard not to be when faced with a bully who's starting to lose their perceived high ground and is trying to lash out in really sad, nonsensical ways. And make no mistake, your behaviour on this thread has been pure antagonistic bullying. And bullying is a really, really shitty thing to do, even if it's 'just' online.

1. I never said I was perfect, far from it. I actually described the ways in which my childhood caused damage that lasted into adulthood and played a part in me making adult decisions that nearly ruined my life. I recognise that and refuse to let the same happen to my son if I can help it.

1. There is no 'secret' perfect way to parent. The most successful methods of discipline are very well documented and widely published. It's all out there in the public domain and anyone not parenting that way is making a conscious decision to ignore what the dogs on the street know are best practice.

Oh and people who make a big deal out of disciplining their kids in public really loudly! Drives me mad.

My children have boundaries and they have rules, I teach them how to behave which is why at school we have never had any serious problems with bad behaviour.
They are not punished and they are not shouted at, it works for me and my children.
I do honestly believe be the only way you can get children to trust and respect you is if you give them the same trust and respect.
Part of the reason my DP has a poor relationship with his mother is because she has never given that to him.
Punishment for punishments sake is not effective in the long run children then only behave in order to avoid punishment. It also means that they are more likely to lie and sneak behind your back to avoid punishment.

Well, craftsy let me break the news to you. You have a furious temper and all the rest what you said because you are like that. It's not the punishment that your parents meted out on you when you were a kid that made you like this. It is your personality. I imagine that you would be a hundred times worse if your parents never punished you.
You think that all kids who are never punished will grow up to be mind-controlling yogis with the patience of a saint who never feel like punching someone? You are having a laugh!
And yes, as someone pointed it out before, you are arrogant.

There are probably children in the world as good, kind, generous, caring, confident, loving, empathetic, emotionally smart and aware as my DS but there are none who are better because there is no actual way he could improve on any of those behaviours. He is literally as amazing as it's possible to be and yet he somehow actually gets better on a near daily basis

Gosh I hope this perfect child of yours never ever lets you down or disappoints you because you arent going to be in a position to deal with it.

craftsy seriously you are deluded. Of course your child may be all the things you describe but for you to be able to be sure there are no children who are better is ludicrous and honestly makes me discount everything else you have posted as also utter rubbish. Surely deciding who is the 'best' child is subjective anyway.

What about when/if you have more than one child? Who is the best then?

I hope he never disappoints you. I have a wonderfully behaved DS I cant remember a single tantrum( does that make him better than yours as he has had two) my DD on the other hand is much more challengong in her behaviour. Maybe you just got lucky?

I can't leave this thread without jumping in in support of the OP and respectful parenting.

I would never preach to another parent about their beliefs and methods, I don't care what anyone else does in their own home with their own kids but I parent along the same lines as the OP and it works well for us. I too would be frustrated and at a loss for the best approach in the face of this MIL's insistence on traditional punishment.

Regardless whether you agree with the OPs approach or not, she is the parent and should have the final say when it comes to her own children in her own home. She should not have to justify or defend her actions.

I do believe there is a time and a place for punishments, I can see situations where it it may be the best option and where I would use them, But it would always be my last resort and I hope to never have to punish my kids.
Different parenting styles work for different parents and for different children and my no punishment approach works for my children, again no punishments doesn’t mean no boundaries or rules.
However to my MiL punishment is the first and only option and I know she is wrong in her approach, the poor relationship she had with my DP is proof of that.

I do believe there is a time and a place for punishments

For other people?

You cannot get a child to adulthood without ever handing out a punishment of some kind. Unless you are totally failing to teach yoru child anything.

Your MIL sounds like a complete nightmare! I agree with this:

I wouldn't let someone in my house who accused me of abusing my children.

It undermines your authority and is bang out of order. I'd have some serious words with her personally and if she can't respect your parenting she shouldn't be allowed to be a party to it. I also wouldn't allow the kids there as she's not prepared to follow your wishes.

I don't use punishment either but I'm not going to justify myself on MN or try and explain my parenting and neither should you OP

My parents never really punished me (back in the 80s). I was not poorly behaved either at home or at school. I cared how others felt and what they thought of me. Knowing that my mother was sad about my behaviour was enough to make me genuinely remorseful. On the few occasions when I was angry about a rule my parents enforced they would stick to it but would acknowledge and accept that I had the right to feel cross about it. I'm sure some of this is down to personality. Nature/nurture is complex. I'm not trying to make anyone feel shit about their parenting. My kid is still too young for this to be an issue.

But these statements that children with "soft" parents will all be assholes is wrong and also just plain mean.

Punishments that seem perfectly consistent to adults may also still feel very arbitrary to children. For instance two siblings bickering over toys and being told the toy will be removed if they can't play nicely. But what if both children sincerely emotionally feel that the other one is at fault? They'll simply feel they lost the toy due to the other's behaviour. All too many parents seem to feel listening and trying to mediate is some sort of weakness.

To be honest my overriding memory of my friends' parents was that they often didn't listen. To extenuating circumstances, to genuine apologies, to requests for clarity, to it being a mistake... on some level I distrusted a lot of them and didn't really consider them safe because of that. There seemed to be a presumption that kids were lying little jerks waiting to get one over. In my admittedly limited experience the kids who were most likely to adopt that behaviour were the ones whose parents were the worst at listening. They dissembled to avoid punishment because they knew nothing else would work as the tone of the relationship had been set.

Obviously I'm not suggesting this is the situation for all kids. But to act like it's not a possible consequence of punishment-based discipline is misguided.

craftsy how on earth did you get your DS to have 2 entire tantrums in his entire life??!

Mine has had more than that and he's not even 22 months yet!

Craftsy while I agree with a lot of your points the fact your son has had two tantrums ever is probably more to do with his temperament and circumstance. Tantrums at a young age are a normal not unhealthy response. My older child hardly had tantrums... Until age 3.5 his little sibling turned up. I know lots of people who parent like you, and some never misbehave or tantrum, some really do.