Abuse for not punishing my kids!?

[pinkliquorice]

I have never found traditional ‘punishments’ eg time out, sent to room etc to be helpful so my kids aren’t punished (of course they are spoken to and made to apologise when they misbehave. )
Over the last few years I have gotten in numerous arguments with my MiL, who is very strict and used to heavily punish DP, I have explained to her our parenting style and told her not to punish/shout at my children.
But she has continued to and has even claimed it is abuse that I don’t.
AIBU to keep this argument up unless she minds her own business and stops punishing my kids?
Would you let anyone else punish your children?

She sounds a bit trigger happy in the examples you give, Pinkliquorice.

Better I think to give the kids a warning first, ie, I’m going to count to three and if.... Rather than just send them straight to their rooms/the naughty step etc.

However, I do feel for her, because it seems there is zero going on in the way of discipline from their parents.

YABU. Or YANBU, depends really on what really matters.

My MIL looks after my DS and she's more strict than I am but I think it's great! I think the more people who correct him when he's being naughty, within reason of course, the better it is for him to understand and respect the world he lives in. Punishment that doesn't work for you may work perfectly well for another. She is their grandmother, I doubt she'd want to harm them. Although I do have to wonder if she is stepping in because she doesn't have the same rose specs as you.

Anyway, do whatever you want, they are your kids. I remember my grandma to be the strictest person I stayed with as a child, and yet still she is the person I will always love as much as my own mother.

Is the rudeness, shouting, throwing and answering back aimed at her?

Normally I would say your kids, you deal as you see fit, but if they are being rude and disrespectful to another adult I think that person has every right to have a word and stop the behaviour. Especially if the parents don't seem to be doing anything. Some of DSs mates speak to their parents like absolute crap. They don't do it to me more than once!

I think most kids understand they need to moderate their behaviour in front of some other adults e.g. granny. If you know, for example, she hates to hear kids say damn,
Couldn't you say something like 'granny doesn't like that' rather than immediately jump to the kids defence and tell them they can ignore her and behave how they like? It sounds like you're both ignoring each other's boundaries tbh.

These kids sound like 3 &4year olds tbh they don't sound a nightmare siblings bicker and what not little children will fight with each other. I personally think the naughty step is a load of rubbish but every parent is different the grandmother is quick to send them to their room or a naughty step where the op doesn't use a naughty step, this is where conflict comes in the granny doesn't need to climb all over their mum to tell them off all the time.

Some of the worst and most abusive parenting I've seen (professionally) has been from parents who 'can’t let them be punished'.

In many ways the end result of years without structure, discipline and the most basic expectations is a worse result for the child than many other forms of neglect. It results in kids who can't seek attention in the right way, can't accept praise, can't resolve conflict, can't put effort into any difficult task, can't self regulate, can't admit when they are wrong and have absolutely no self esteem.

I'm not saying you are like that, OP. I'm not saying strict 'punishment' is the only way to parent. I am saying kids need: consequences when they do harm, structure and high expectations. They need to be taught to be decent human beings. They also need praise to recognise when they do right.

I think you need to ask yourself some really hard questions about whether you provide the above.

Their behaviour sounds perfectly normal to me (and Im pretty strict) and gran shouldn't be jumping all over them. It would be reasonable for you to insist they modify their language in front of their gran though, that's just normal good manners.

For balance, I should add:

I'm not saying OP is necessarily in the wrong. It's sort of hard to tell whether you are minimising their behaviour or your MiL is wildly draconian. I certainly wouldn't send a kid to bed without tea if it was at all avoidable.

My 3YO is a monster at the moment- it certainly isn't easy to get this stuff right.

My children aren’t angels, they argue, make mess, answer back from time to time. But I have always found talking to them and praising good behaviour to be enough. I don’t know what I would do if they continued to misbehave, maybe I would have to punish them.
MiL is very strict, partly why DP has little of a relationship with her now and I do think she has toned down but I don’t think I can let it slide and just let her go against my parenting and punish them anyway when that is something I have actively tried not to do.

It sounds like you have boundaries and the children respond to them when you challenge them which is fair enough. For some children, talking to them appropriately can go a long way. Jumping straight to "punishment" is often counterproductive, especially for normal low level behaviour. There is a very broad middle ground between both approaches.

Sometimes you may need to add a consequence too. For example if DS1 has got himself worked up into a state and is being rough to DS2, there's no point in talking to him while he's irate, so the first stage is sending him to his room so he has the quiet space to calm down. It's a consequence, but not necessarily a punishment, then when he's calm I can have a more productive talk with him which has got more effective as he's got older.

What we can't judge is whether your always talk approach is always effective. You and MiL have a large gap between your approaches and there is some room for compromise. Different people have different boundaries so something which may not be problematic at home can be dealt with by "X would like you to do this" which isn't undermining anyone (particularly for small rules like shoes in the house, or where people eat etc) Children are good at understanding variations of boundaries.

If she's a reasonable person, you may be able to get some give back if you give a little on the small stuff. If she's just going to bulldoze through everything then reducing visits to save stress might be the only way.

If you don't like how she treats your kids, you need to not leave them with her, alone, ever.

Arguing with her about it is a pissing contest. No one will win and you'll both get wet feet.

'Punishment' is inherently stupid and non-effective anyway. 'Consequences' of unacceptable behaviour - such as missing a small treat, or being made aware that other people are sad and angry and you should apologise - are OK but the idea of seeking out ways to hurt a child... Nah. Pointless, creepy and stupid.

I wouldn't consider time out as punishment.

I think you have a problem boundary setting for your dcs.

What does the health visitor think about this?

Your dcs will get a shock when they go to school and are expected to behave!

What happens when they are naughty at nursery?

Wow lots of really biased views about choosing not to punish. Where is the evidence from this thread that OP's kids are behaving crazed and feral?!?

Some people on this thread seen to confuse discipline and boundaries with punishment... It sounds like OP has clear boundaries with her children, just because she doesn't punish with naughty step or bed with no dinner etc doesn't mean she is a weak or ineffective parent.

And as for the poster saying shouting and throwing isn't normal little kids behaviour... Really?!

I have friends who are very strict with children, send to naughty step/room for every minor transgression... Yet their kids are among the least well behaved I know!

Was going to say yabu as I thought you were going to say you used her as childcare.
It’s a difficult one. On the one hand she shouldn’t be disciplining them at all if you are there and if it is you they are being cheeky to or your property being damaged etc it isn’t really her concern. If a lot of the poor behaviour is directed at her though endless sorrys might not be cutting it and the only real option if the behaviour is continuing would be for her to leave which I’m sure she would be reluctant to do as she wants to see the children.
Are you home educating/planning on as you will struggle to find a school that doesn’t use punishments/consequences as part of their behaviour management.

pinkliquorice I agree with you really strongly. I used to 'punsih' my Dc when they were small - naughty step - all that rubbish, and all it did was make me feel lusy and upset them. then I changed to talking it through, teaching them to calm themselves down, sort out their own disagreements etc and it has worked so well. they are almost never rude or disrepsctful. When they are we have words and it is sorted. they never had tantrums and their teens, so far, have passed very calmly. They are not perfect at all - nor am - I but we talk things through, have since they were about 3 years old, and it is so much more pleasant and easier than the relationships friends have with their DC who they frequently punish and lay down the law with.

I think it's worth keeping on explaining to your M-i-L that you do things differently. I've occasionally told my dad never to speak to my children like that again and it has curbed him a bit.

I think you may change your mind as they get older. I never needed to punish any of my 3 particularly when they were 3&4 but did as they get older and different methods have worked for each child.
I do think there is a mid way between your style and you MIL style and that’s possibly the place to be. You may not mind them saying damn but school will. I’ve always been a firm believer in teaching my dc that different people have different expectations and what I find acceptable might be different for other people so it does no harm for other people to tell them off from time to time. Knowing different people have different rules is a useful skill for children to learn.
You are running the risk of your dc going to school and not dealing well with the stricter rules there because they are seeing you argue with another adult who is finding their behaviour unacceptable.

To the above parents who think punishing children is the only way to avoid bringing up monsters I can promise that you are doing it wrong.
I have a 3,4,7,9 and a 21 year old and not punishing has been amazing.
My children go to school, and they have no problems because they are well behaved.
Punishing doesn’t work and it’s the lazy way of parenting, because you can’t be bothered to teach them to stop spilling food or explain to them why they shouldn’t say certain words, you can’t be bothered to actually parent or teach your children so you just take away their possessions and send them to their room.
When you confiscate a child’s toy, they are only behaving to get the toy back, if you put them on the naughty step they will only apologise so they can go back to playing, you are not achieving anything.
If you have to blackmail and threaten your children to behave there is something wrong, my children don’t behave to avoid punishments they behave because they should.
I can get my children to behave and to be polite by talking to them calmly, I have full control without blackmailing.
My children respect me because I respect them, my children trust me because I trust them.
I get nothing out of being cruel and upsetting my children, I get nothing out of being angry and shouting at them.
My children don’t lie because they are scared of getting in trouble, they tell the truth because they’ll know they won’t be in trouble.
My older children don’t not tell me things that have gone wrong because they think I’ll be mad and ground them, they tell me because they trust me and know I will help them sort it out.
I’ve seem so many parents spend most of the time being mad and punishing them and this makes the children naughtier because they are now mad and upset.
I’ve seen parents ruin relationships with their children through punishing, you are not building up trust and respect you are creating disrespect and hatred.
I took DS7 to his friends last night because they were going to go trick or treating. His mum said he wasn’t going because he was rude and he was upstairs screaming that he was sorry, my heart broke because I thought he’s sorry why is she being so cruel but actually he’s not sorry because he was rude to her, he is only saying sorry so he can go trick or treating. Not letting him go will not teach him a lesson and make him respect you it will make him angry and upset, make him not like you and more likely to play up again.

I also don't do punishments, but I do consequences as a direct result of their actions, and I would expect anyone looking after them to do the same. So for example, if they were at my mums house and they threw toys, I wouldn't want them sat on a time out, as that is a punishment, but I would expect and allow my mum to remove the toys and tell them they have been removed because they weren't being played with correctly.

And there's your answer ....

Sorry OP but what a crock.

You're talking out of your arse, OP.

"Not letting him go will not teach him a lesson and make him respect you it will make him angry and upset, make him not like you and more likely to play up again"

Oh dear..

Op - you obviously know what you are talking about - having already raised a child to adulthood successfully. Your parenting style is very similar to mine - carry on the good work!

I don't buy for a second that your kids have never been punished in school because they are so well behaved. They would be punished for saying damn as a pp pointed out.