To believe that sex is not 'assigned' at birth, but observed?

[Splandy]

I filled in a form for British gymnastics yesterday and was asked whether my child's gender identity matches the sex he was assigned at birth. I started a thread about this elsewhere and other people said that they have also had this question on forms. Upon asking, one person was told that it is a result of new government regulations coming in, meaning they have to ask it.

Does anybody know what these regulations are? Is there anybody who genuinely believes that sex is assigned at birth rather than observed? If so, could you explain why? I am very concerned that something so clearly untrue is being slipped in under the radar. There was no option to disagree with the question and any answer implied that I agree with what the question states: that sex is assigned at birth.

Would be especially interesting to hear from midwives/doctors.

To clarify, I am talking about your biological sex. Not gender.

Well it's a fact that this particular quack paedophile doctor originated the gender assignment protocol for intersex people.

heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/cardw12&div=20&id=&page=

epubs.surrey.ac.uk/800503/6/intersexed%20activism.pdf

"In 1990 psychologist Suzanne Kessler commented that Money's theory of intersexuality was 'so strongly endorsed that it has taken on the character of gospel' among medical professionals."

John Money cannot be dismissed as a weird extreme. He coined the term "gender role" and his work has been hugely influential on the development of approaches to transgenderism, even when his work is discredited. It's very important to put that work into context against his paedophilia. For example, the horrendous case of David Reimer is often used as evidence that children have an inherent gender identity but the other circumstances in that case, including the sexual abuse of the boy by Money are important factors.

Of course, that doesn't mean the whole profession are paedophiles. When you refer to "gender assignment" are you talking about surgery on a child with an intersex condition or a child who believes his gender identity does not match his sex?

I would presume this question is now relevant on forms due to lgbtqqip2saa actually?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.pride.com/pride/2014/07/06/gay-acronym-alphabet-–-limiting-its-inclusiveness%3famp

According to the link given earlier to the National Office for Statistics:

'For births where the sex of a child is indeterminate or where there are intersex traits, the advice given by the General Register Office (GRO) is that the registration should be deferred until medical investigations have been completed. If this goes over the 42 days usually required to register a birth, the matter is reported to GRO in writing for monitoring of the case and to ensure that a registration is eventually secured.'

So babies with intersex conditions which are apparent at birth are not 'assigned' a sex, further investigations happen so that their sex can be correctly be recorded. Their parents can tick the sex: male/female box just like everyone else.

Some very weird phrasing on here from the self declared doctor. I'd expect them to very clearly understand the difference between sex and gender. Maybe they don't teach that in Med school? Have they ever?

OP, YANBU. and for the love of god, leave those with intersex conditions alone.

wrenika

Be glad this means nothing more than a box to you and move on. It's pathetic.

Nothing pathetic about it. A small but very vocal minority are affecting change that threatens the very core of women's rights. This is monumentally more than just a box on an application form. You are blinkered if you can't see that. Open your eyes.

“it is slightly more complicated than A+ or AB- or whatever.”

No, it’s not. Human race is sexually dimorphic. The vast majority are clearly either Male or Female don’t mistakenly believe themselves to be the other sex.

You don’t seem to understand that “Intersex” is a disorder. It is not a normal variation of human genital development.

“As I understand it the current 'assigned' trend actually dates from the 50s. A doctor declared that gender was socialized”

You don’t seem to understand the difference between sex and gender, either.

vorpalmum

Telling a young person that because they have a 'sex assigned at birth' and anything else is pretending can be psychologically harmful to them, especially if they have a gender related disorder.

Biology is truth, gender is a socially constructed pigeon-hole. What is wrong with having pink for boys and blue for girls? Girls who love playing with cars and boys who prefer craft? Butch women and boys who love their long hair and femme appearance?

If we were to break down gender, then individuals would be free to live their lives without fear nor judgement. What sex they are would be less relevant and would eliminate the need to change sex (NB not that this has ever been possible - changing the appearance of sex through hormones and surgery may be possible but actual sex, is unchangeable).

Gender dysphoria however is a recognised psychiatric condition but even saying that makes me a bigot. Apparently.

araiwa
what a storm in a teacup about a word

doctor or whoever sees sex organs and writes the sex on whatever paperwork- that is literally what it is and nothing to pearl clutch about

Blimey - you don't read much, do you? I wish it were that simple.

"No, it’s not. Human race is sexually dimorphic. The vast majority are clearly either Male or Female don’t mistakenly believe themselves to be the other sex.

You don’t seem to understand that “Intersex” is a disorder. It is not a normal variation of human genital development. "

Yes of course it's a disorder, as is being transgender. I don't know where you imagine I think otherwise.

"“As I understand it the current 'assigned' trend actually dates from the 50s. A doctor declared that gender was socialized”

You don’t seem to understand the difference between sex and gender, either."

But in the 1950s there was no distinction. The sex/gender distinction did not exist. That's the point.

Florafox I'm explaining that sometimes the external genitalia (and internal sex organs) are developed in a baby to make it difficult to make the assessment of automatically male or female.

In such cases, after careful consideration and extended discussion with parents, doctors may "assign" a gender to a baby. That allows for appropriate treatment of the baby, including surgery if it's needed.

To be quite frank, I wish I hadn't commented on this. I'm passionate about reproductive issues and it's absolutely fundamental that we support and care for people who have intersex conditions. Because it's underrecognised and people can feel very stigmatised.

SonyaY
namechange2222

You are being transphobic and in time you will be seen as bad as racists and homophobes

Bingo. And there it is.
I hope you are being tongue in cheek here as you are talking utter bullshit.

“Yes of course it's a disorder, as is being transgender. I don't know where you imagine I think otherwise.”

Because you talk about intersex people as if it’s a normal variation.

“As I understand it the current 'assigned' trend actually dates from the 50s. A doctor declared that gender was socialized... But in the 1950s there was no distinction. The sex/gender distinction did not exist. That's the point.”

Not sure how that’s relevant. “Assigned male at birth” rubbish certainly didn’t exist back in the ‘50s or even the ‘70s. It is a very recent thing that is entirely made up to support trans agenda - so they can say “I was assigned male sex at birth but my true sex which exists only in my mind is female”, for example.

Owl if you want to care and support people with intersex condition I suggest you pay more attention to the ways transactivists are co-opting intersex conditions to foster the belief that transgender is a type of intersex condition such that a 50 year old person with unambiguous reproductive system who has fathered children was "assigned male at birth" but has actually always been female. This is now a mainstream view not confined to a weird fringe and not helpful for people to understand and support people who actually have an intersex condition.

It might well be that the process through which intersex babies had to go through ended up being an ‘assignment of sex’. But the term is now loaded politically.

The condition of intersex has been heavily hijacked by the trans community.

From using it to shore up the non-binary argument, to the various terminology, to wanting to collaborate with them (and being repeatedly refused).

The trans community don’t give a toss about intersex people. Other than to co-opt the condition for their own gain.

It means that intersex is constantly included in the argument. It’s irrelevant to transgenderism. And it keeps putting intersex people into a negative spotlight they haven’t asked for.

I’m all for highlighting the plight of intersex people, but it’s an entirely separate issue.

‘Assigned at birth’ is a marketing tool of the trans ideology. And it should be addressed as exactly that.

Telling a young person that because they have a 'sex assigned at birth' and anything else is pretending can be psychologically harmful

For me, this is the whole problem; other than the biological side of things (pregnancy, periods, ejaculation etc.) sex at birth shouldn't have to be a factor in how you present/live your life.

If you are transgender you are probably going to have to accept that you are not going to experience the biological side of things of the opposite sex anyway.

You are being transphobic and in time you will be seen as bad as racists and homophobes

No female is every allowed to discuss or debate these issues without being transphobic. And on this thread, you’re called transphobic simply for pointing out the difference between biological sex and gender. Prefering women to shut up and accept whatever they told. How tiring.

The OP asked for a view from a doctor. I've provided an explanation from a medical perspective.

"Gender assignment" is a very specific medical term. It's been around for a very long time. It may be used interchangeably with "sex assignment" (which I think is technically wrong, but that's what happens).

A major report from the US may be helpful to some in understanding the use of the term www.dsdguidelines.org/files/clinical.pdf

And here is a paper on support here in the UK www.bsped.org.uk/clinical/docs/CEN.pdf

"Assignment" at birth is what happens; and can sometimes be biologically incorrect (because the actual sex becomes clear at puberty, even when it seemed clear at birth).

I'm going to step away from this now. Because in part I'm quite fed up of being attacked for simply giving a background to a technical definition. (It's always good to attack to get people on side, it seems)

And also because I'm deeply uncomfortable with the agressive stance towards trans-issues. "Othering" people, excluding and generating hostility towards them is exactly what has happened to generations of women. I find it shocking that we are prepared to countenance that towards those who are transgender.

AcademicOwl

Please don’t bow out. It’s vital that these things are talked about. And yes, people do get heated.

But there’s a good reason for that.

Jazz Jennings, the poster child for the trans-ideology has now found out that, due to puberty blockers, there’s not enough penile material to create a neovagina. Therefore it has to be made from part of his torso. He is permanently sterile and has no sexual function. Nor will he. The torso not being sexual. He is devastated by the news. News that should have come as absolutely zero surprise since puberty blockers are designed to prevent development of genitals. But no, everyone seems to be totally shocked.

Here is an account from a mother, that I have taken from another thread. With exactly the same problem.

If you are a doctor, your take on this would be very much appreciated.

No one is talking about this because of spite, maliciousness, prejudice. They’re talking about it because it is so very concerning. Frightening really.

I’m back, and reading information about intersex conditions has been very interesting, but I don’t believe this has anything to do with being inclusive to intersex people. They are not pushing for this and haven’t asked for it.

I have every sympathy with somebody who feels that they are the wrong gender. I’m sure those people must be suffering. Telling that their sex is wrong and and be changed is not true. It is incredibly frustrating to be told that I am a bigot every single time I point out how dangerous it is to have things which are simply impossible and untrue forced upon us as facts. I don’t conform to gender norms either, but my biological sex cannot be changed. I don’t even believe in the idea of gender being innate, it is something that society puts onto me. Focusing on erasing gender is the most sensible thing to do. If there is no gender then there are no set ways for men or women to behave and biological sex will only matter in terms of medical care and real, physical differences. Focusing on erasing sex and saying that gender is all that matters is so fucking twisted and only further reinforces the ideas that men and women behave certain ways because it is innate to like cars as a boy and fairies as a girl, which is an EXTREMELY damaging idea. Can you not see that? How many times have you read that somebody feels like a woman because they like wearing dresses and high heels? Do you believe that girls are born with dresses and high heels hardwired into them? Were men in the seventies all really women because they wore platform heels?? It is such bullshit. Such tiring bullshit.

Well exactly. I have scoured the Internet to find out whether or not Jazz Jennings had gender dysphoria. There is hardly any mention of it.

Almost everything about his past is to do with stereotypes. Him wanting to wear a tutu, etc.

Now he’s permanently sterile, will never have proper sex and is on medication for life. Untested. If they do create a neo vagina, he will have to dilate it regularly for the rest of his life, otherwise it will close up.

Even if he did have gender dysphoria, what kind of outcome is that??

And remember, according to his mother, it was he who made this decision. First of all at five years old, and then again at eleven years old when the treatment started.

...because tutus.

Exactly Splandy. Damaging and tiring are the words.

The bigot phrase is used far to often as a way to just stop discussion and 'win'. It's a very lazy response to what is a thoughtful debate .

Yes, to be honest, I do feel terrified that one of my children might turn around and tell me they think that they’re really a girl. Because the ‘treatment’ is horrific and seems to amount to mutilating the bodies of children who cannot possibly make an informed decision at such a young age. My son told me when he was a girl when he was about 5. I had been, very vaguely, trying to explain the idea to him because he’d asked about it. He found it confusing because he’d never come across the idea of likes and dislikes being decided by whether you are male or female. That wasn’t pushed onto him until he went to school and heard it from other children. He came to the conclusion that he must be a girl. I am so glad that he stopped saying it.

Those pushing the gender stereotypes never have an answer to cultural differences in those stereotypes. (some) Men in Scotland wear skirts (kilts). Doesn't make them women or trans. Men in Arab countries wear dresses. Doesn't make them women or trans. A child playing football/soccer is generally a boy in the UK but a girl in the US.

Are we being expected to believe that a toddler somehow knows what country they're in, to pick out the "correct" gender stereotypes? Of course I do realise that society is imposing those stereotypes on children from before birth, but the "always known I was the wrong sex" brigade are never able to answer how the "innateness" of their womanhood was always so country specific.