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Original poster

To believe that sex is not 'assigned' at birth, but observed?

365 replies

Splandy · 31/10/2017 12:11

I filled in a form for British gymnastics yesterday and was asked whether my child's gender identity matches the sex he was assigned at birth. I started a thread about this elsewhere and other people said that they have also had this question on forms. Upon asking, one person was told that it is a result of new government regulations coming in, meaning they have to ask it.

Does anybody know what these regulations are? Is there anybody who genuinely believes that sex is assigned at birth rather than observed? If so, could you explain why? I am very concerned that something so clearly untrue is being slipped in under the radar. There was no option to disagree with the question and any answer implied that I agree with what the question states: that sex is assigned at birth.

Would be especially interesting to hear from midwives/doctors.

To clarify, I am talking about your biological sex. Not gender.

OP posts:
messyjessy17 · 31/10/2017 13:25

doctor or whoever sees sex organs and writes the sex on whatever paperwork- that is literally what it is and nothing to pearl clutch about

you've entirely missed the point and problem here.

Screepy · 31/10/2017 13:27

There are 7 billion people in this world. Therefore there are 7 billion personalities and 7 billion genders.

There are still only 2 sexes however.

Elendon · 31/10/2017 13:28

Sex is usually confirmed to the foetus with a caveat. Confirmation is done at birth.

There is no assigning done with regards to the biological sex of a human.

Gender kicks in whilst the foetus is in the uterus.

ArcheryAnnie · 31/10/2017 13:28

Let me guess - you haven't RTFT, have you, araiwa?

GeorgeTheHamster · 31/10/2017 13:29

Cesare- thanks, that makes sense to me.

KanyeWesticle · 31/10/2017 13:30

What's wrong with just Sex? Male, Female or Intersex/other genetic ambiguity

Sex implies biological.

Then they can ask Gender. Masculine, Feminine, Other, or None.

My answer would be female and none.
A transwoman, MTF would answer, Male and Feminine.

AcademicOwl · 31/10/2017 13:30

so there are several separate issues here (as I see it).

  1. Genuinely intersex babies where a decision about what gender to assign has to be made. It might seem obvious to say, "lets genetically test them", but there are situations where the genetics are so varied (not everyone is XX or XY), or just the anatomy is so different from the genetics - it's really hard. And I do think we owe it to individuals to recognise this. And as I said, it isn't as rare as people might think.
  2. People who find out later that they aren't genetically the sex they were assigned/assumed to be at birth. As I said, this often happens at puberty and can be very stressful for all.
  3. Some kind of transgender linked issue.
I actually think that knowing about each of these things if a child is taking part in competitive sport is really important. Because it might influence competition; but also it would be a positive thing to support the children if they need it. So, I still think it's unreasonable to get upset about the use of the term 'assigned' when it's a medically recognised term.
differenteverytime · 31/10/2017 13:31

doctor or whoever sees sex organs and writes the sex on whatever paperwork- that is literally what it is and nothing to pearl clutch about

That's exactly how it should go, araiwa. I'm not 'pearl clutching' because of that. The issue is when children are told that this simple observation may have been done 'wrongly', and that it is in fact for them to decide whether they are male or female.

Fresta · 31/10/2017 13:32

The word 'determined' is usually used in relation to sex. Why not just use that instead of assigned?

KalaLaka · 31/10/2017 13:33

How do transactivists define female as a gender, rather than biological sex? Genuine question.

Elendon · 31/10/2017 13:34

Gender and sex is different AcademicOwl

That should be the premise of your argument.

differenteverytime · 31/10/2017 13:34

Yes, Academic. But none of the children in the examples you give will be best served by muddying up the distinction between biological intersex conditions and the desire to present outside of society's gender roles.

ArcheryAnnie · 31/10/2017 13:36

So, I still think it's unreasonable to get upset about the use of the term 'assigned' when it's a medically recognised term.

But currently the most common use of the term isn't in a medical context, it's in a political one. You , perfectly reasonably, are thinking like a doctor. But most of us are not doctors, and in common parlance - at least in circles where this is discussed at all - it is not medical concerns which are at the forefront of asking this question at all.

messyjessy17 · 31/10/2017 13:36

So, I still think it's unreasonable to get upset about the use of the term 'assigned' when it's a medically recognised term

It's a medically recognised term when there is a medical need for the term. There usually is not though, and medical people know that.

SonyaY · 31/10/2017 13:37

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AcademicOwl · 31/10/2017 13:38

Honestly, sex anatomy can be really ambiguous in babies. The amount of variation can be considerable, just in the same way that there can be many differences in other anatomical development.

As far as prevalence of intersex, it's possibly as much as 2% of the population. But it's really hard to find proper figures, as it's very poorly recorded.

Elendon · 31/10/2017 13:39

When I gave birth as a woman to my three babies I was shown the genitals and asked to confirm. It's a girl twice and it's a boy once. Their dad confirmed the decision.

Nothing was assigned, we were not pressurised into making this decision.

It was biology as we as parents knew it.

As parents we did make the decision though to not gender stereotype. That had nothing whatsoever to do with the HCPs who attended to me and my baby.

messyjessy17 · 31/10/2017 13:39

It transsexual, they are assigned the wrong sex their gender was always female even if they where incorrectly assigned male sex at birth so they correct their sex records

Again you are confusing sex and gender. Their gender may be female if they feel that way, their sex is still male. They were not incorrectly assigned as male at birth, they were in fact male.

ArcheryAnnie · 31/10/2017 13:41

Nobody is denying that intersex people exist! But intersex concerns are not what is driving this change in language. It's being driven by people who are not intersex at all, but who want to obfuscate that they have a reality-based biological sex which was observed, not assigned against their will, at their birth.

messyjessy17 · 31/10/2017 13:42

Honestly, sex anatomy can be really ambiguous in babies. The amount of variation can be considerable, just in the same way that there can be many differences in other anatomical development

I'm a midwife. It CAN be ambiguous, but it almost always is not. There is a lot of variation in penises and vaginas, but not so much that you can't generally easily tell which it is.
Baby comes out, you can see whether it is male or female. True ambiguity does occur but rarely.

HidingUnderARock · 31/10/2017 13:45

I was wondering if it was to do with whether they would be allowed to do the gymnastics they want to. I say this as someone without a penis who wanted to do pommel horse and rings but instead was required (and failed) to make up stupid dances in order to be allowed to do "gymnastics". I'd have asked to go to dance classes if that's what interested me. I am quite old though, so I hope things have changed.

The required clothes for female gymnasts are still (even more) ridiculously sexualised though, and must be an issue for many genetically female gymnasts let alone anyone else.

tl;dr yes I have rtft but is it so they can say "no" to people?

pisacake · 31/10/2017 13:48

"the genetics are so varied (not everyone is XX or XY), or just the anatomy is so different from the genetics"

As I understand it, the point is that intersex conditions ARE an expression of genetics (NB genes, not just chromosomes). So it is not the case that that anatomy is different from the genetics. Rather it is that the genetics are more complicated in rare cases than simply XX or XY.

Also it is a spectrum in the sense that an XY person who is completely insensitive to male hormones (which is due to their genes) develops a pseudo-vagina and breasts, and therefore presents straightforwardly as female. However, someone who has partial insensitivity to male hormones (again, genetic) may have male sexual organs but some body femininisation.

PoppyPopcorn · 31/10/2017 13:48

YANBU. Medical staff and parents are not tossing coins in teh delivery room to determine male or female. This "assigning at birth" thing goes to the heart of my issues with the current transgender thing.

You are not "assigned" anything. You ARE either male or female, that's biological fact. (Let's leave intersex people out of this, they don't want to be part of the trans debate). If you are male but at a later date you decide you feel like a woman, then fine. Wear your dresses or do whatever else you think you need to do to make you happy. But you're still biologically male. And vice versa.

SonyaY · 31/10/2017 13:50

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araiwa · 31/10/2017 13:51

i have read the thread and it seems to me to be a lot of people who dont know the difference between intersex and transgender

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