To believe that sex is not 'assigned' at birth, but observed?

[Splandy]

I filled in a form for British gymnastics yesterday and was asked whether my child's gender identity matches the sex he was assigned at birth. I started a thread about this elsewhere and other people said that they have also had this question on forms. Upon asking, one person was told that it is a result of new government regulations coming in, meaning they have to ask it.

Does anybody know what these regulations are? Is there anybody who genuinely believes that sex is assigned at birth rather than observed? If so, could you explain why? I am very concerned that something so clearly untrue is being slipped in under the radar. There was no option to disagree with the question and any answer implied that I agree with what the question states: that sex is assigned at birth.

Would be especially interesting to hear from midwives/doctors.

To clarify, I am talking about your biological sex. Not gender.

sex assigned at birth has been the phrase used for over 50 years, and sex observed has never been used, it's just the phrase that has been used since there's been a need to recognise intersex people.

SonyaY I get that you are supporting your child, and want the best for them, but while they can change their gender expression, they can't change their sex. There is no such thing as the "wrong sex" or the "wrong chromosomes" - there's just the observed sex.

I wish your child every happiness in presenting however they wish, but denying biological reality really doesn't help anyone, least of all them.

She "has the wrong chromosomes of her real sex". Do you mean she has a chromosomal intersex condition?

Yes, and the phrase is now being misused to mean something completely different. And no, if people have intersex conditions, a chromosome test doesn't necessarily clarify.

I think it sounds like there is a bit of confusion here about the distinction between sex and gender. I'm a sociologist and I study this stuff and teach it in my classes. Sex is a biological characteristic, based on your distribution of X and Y chromosomes. You are absolutely right that it isn't 'assigned' at birth. It's an innate biological characteristic that is determined by the chromosomes present in the sperm that successfully fertilises an egg that then goes on to be a baby. But it is usually at birth that parents and medical professionals look at external genitalia (which usually but not always correspond to the distribution of X/Y chromosomes) 'determine' as best they can, assuming external genitalia are not ambiguous, what those chromosomes are likely to be. When it isn't clear, then genetic testing is done. So like, yes, biological sex is technically 'assigned' by god, coincidence, whatever at the moment that the sperm pierces the egg. But honestly, most people filling out an organisational or government form aren't smart enough to understand what you mean if you ask them about that. For the average lay person, biological sex is determined at birth through confirmation of external genitalia. Yes, you could critique the use of language here, but honestly I think saying it any other way would probably confuse 80% of people who fill out those forms and that's what they are trying to avoid.

Obviously, gender on the other hand is the performance and self presentation of one's identity on a spectrum between masculine and feminine. In lay men's terms, it's how you live your life and how you want others to refer to you, how you want them to behave towards you.

I'm not quite sure why you think it's such a weird question. For people who are trans or gender-non conforming, it offers a way of stating what their identity is, how they want others to see them, and also clearing up any confusion about what may be listed on their birth records or other documents I suspect they have to submit for these sorts of things. In sports obviously, there are specific rules about who can compete in what based on their gender or their sex and each organisation has their own regulations about how to categorise people for competitions (whether by biological sex or by gender identity). That's a whole other issue, which has been quite controversial.

" so their assigned sex might be wrong and when they are older they can tell everyone their real sex.".
What an utter load of tripe.
They can also tell everyone they have ginger hair or six legs but regardless of their opinion these things are either right or wrong.

Yes, I totally agree. I have been concerned for a while but know that some people aren't aware or aren't bothered.

As the idea that biological sex is assigned/chosen is becoming more mainstream, I am wondering what people who don't already know about this sort of thing think of it. I would assume that common sense would kick in for most people and prompt a 'what the fuck' moment. Because most people don't believe that. Because biological sex is something which cannot be changed.

Ok. I'm a dr.
So babies can be born where the sex isn't immediately obvious at birth. They may need to have a gender 'assigned' so that a) they can be registered and given a name, etc and b) a treatment plan (if needed) is put in place.
We recognise that sometimes the assigned gender at birth turns out not to match the genetic sex of the individual; this sometimes comes to light at the point of puberty. so there is sometimes a situation (esp in sport) where someone living as female turns out to have male genetics (or something else).
I don't think it's at all unreasonable to talk about 'assignment' at birth. And, to be honest, if you haven't had to worry about this with a newborn, then you're very fortunate as a parent.
Intersex is more common than people think. And it can be difficult both clinically and emotionally to manage. It's not part of some giant conspiracy theory.
And to be clear, any case where the sex wasn't clear at birth would go to the most senior doctors for review, (probably to several) before a decision was made to assign gender, alongside input from parents, normally.

I'm a student midwife. We look to see if there's a vulva or a penis and when registering the baby onto the computer system we use, we can record either "male" (if penis) or "female" (if vulva). I have only come across one instance so far of an intersex baby but wasn't involved with the care of that family so don't know what happened.

The system does record this as "gender" rather than "sex" though...

I think there are two problems here. I completely agree with you that biological sex is an observable fact (in most cases) but I think the problem is actually misuse of language. The word ‘assigned’ I think was originally used in the sense that the baby was being assigned to a sex, rather than a sex being assigned to the baby. So, Midwife looks between legs, observes penis, ‘assigns’ baby to the male sex. As in usher asks ‘bride or groom?’, guest answers ‘bride’, usher ‘assigns’ guest to left side of church. The usher is not deciding whether the guest is on the bride’s or groom’s side - they’re sending them somewhere based on the knowledge that they are one or the other. BUT clumsy use of language has let it get turned around and mixed up, so we are in a situation where it sounds like sexes are being randomly assigned to/ thrust upon babies, which of course fits certain agendas, rather than babies being very properly assigned to biological sex groups based on observation.

Do they also get to say their 'assigned' birthweight or breastfeeding status was wrong too when they get older?
This shit is crap and dangerous. Facts are facts. Opinions are opinions. Failing to understabd which is which will lead us down some strange avenues.
The moon is made of cheese. That is my truth and no more or less valid than yours. So teach your children it

When you have a baby people don't ask you, "What sex has the baby been assigned?" They say, "What sex IS the baby?", "IS it a boy or a girl?" I accept that in the rare intersex cases sex could be ambiguous and in the days before doctors could check whether the baby had XX, XY or something else, mistakes were made. In the majority of cases though sex isn't assigned. Mothers giving birth aren't generally in doubt as to the sex of their offspring. It's obvious and doesn't need any special knowledge or training.

Drives me spare.

It's there, no one assigned it. It developed on its own.

I'm not quite sure why you think it's such a weird question.

mindutopia because it's not a neutral phrasing, it's a very politically-loaded phrasing, and in the current political climate, where some very big questions are being put forward about, eg, the future of sex-segregated (not gender-segregated) services, it's important to be clear.

So, yes. YABU

And completely failing to recognise what can be a very challenging and emotionally painful medical situation for those affected.

And, to be honest, if you haven't had to worry about this with a newborn, then you're very fortunate as a parent

Oh come on, if you are as you claim to be, a dr, you will know how rare it is to have an actually intersex child. It's not something that happens every day.

No one says that the baby has been assigned 10 toes and ten fingers.

And completely failing to recognise what can be a very challenging and emotionally painful medical situation for those affected

Bullshit. That isn't what it is about at all, and all we are saying is that you cannot take a tiny tiny minority issue and apply it to everyone as if it is relevant.

Or assigned 7lb and 3oz but when they get older they can tell us they were actually 11lb 6oz.
This is utter utter madness and people who can't see this have drunk the cool aid.

Sex is assigned at birth, you either have male genitalia or female genitalia. Gender is observed

No...

Sex is observed at birth based on external genitalia which, with the small exception of intersex children, correctly reflects the babies chromosomal make up which determines whether they are male or female.

Gender is assigned/imposed/forced upon us after sex is observed as the socially constructed belief of how individuals of each sex should behave and what they should like in order to conform to a ridiculous set of stereotypes that vary from country to country and decade to decade.

AcademicOwl but this debate, these questions, haven't arisen as a result of concern about intersex conditions, or of when the genetic makeup of a child doesn't correspond with what is observed about their body. It's come about as a result of trans activism spinning the narrative that biological sex is optional, irrelevant, and something that is imposed on children, not something that just arises.

Yes.

Can someone please assign me as six feet tall and a redhead?

mindutopia, thanks for the detailed post. What do you think of the word 'assigned' being used to claim that it is possible to be a sex other than the one you are (and not by intersex people) because you were incorrectly assigned. That is what concerns me.

I think use of the word assigned is far more likely to confuse people than not, if it is genuinely being used to ask what sex they are. Assigned has a very clear meaning when used at any other time.

How can so many people be so incredibly dim? And why is this stupidity being supported and perpetuated

No problem chardonnay. I've assigned you as a red setter, will that do?