To start a thread about things you should not say or do to childless people

[user1485342611]

As someone who can't have children I have sometimes been shocked at how tactless and insensitive some people can be - the latest being a colleague who objects to having to work over Christmas because 'Christmas is about children. Staff with families should get priority'.

I do have a family, it just doesn't include children of my own.

AIBU to be fed up of this kind of stuff and to ask other posters in similar situations to share hurtful acts and words in the hope that it might educate those not in our situation and who don't always think before they speak/act?

The funniest comment I've had;

You don't have kids do you? You'd know how to make gravy if u did...'

Why not just have a job instead of a career Margaret. You know, a 'need' instead of a 'want'.

Seriously, any chance you'd just get off the thread. Your blind insensitivity is just staggering.

Maybe I'm odd, but I've never told any manager or colleagues whether or not I have children, and no one has ever asked, so it can't have been taken into consideration when approving holiday time. Although maybe they've (rightly) assumed I don't, as I've never mentioned any, or had to ask for time off for childcare issues, ill children etc.

MargaretTwatyer well plenty of my friends have been able to become mothers and still have a career without the need to shit all over everyone tbh

Mmh I am on the fence re holidays: my initial position is that child-less/free people shouldnnt be penalized by someone else deciding to have children.
The two points that make me unsure are

• difficulty to find childcare during bank holidays / christmas time: even if you say it shouldn't be taken into account, if a parent can't find childcare they won't come to work (calling in sick, etc) because you can't just leave a child alone. As a manager I would want to avoid taking this risk.
• re christmas being family time / people have family even if they don't have DC / spending time with elderly relatives which would be alone otherwise: an adult can understand work commitments whereas a child can't and will just be heartbroken.

(context: 4y infertility, now have 3yo DT)

Is a child a need or a want hmmm??

When I feel really bitter I do think horrible things about parents.

I would never say those things in RL as I'm not a bitch and try to ignore my bitterness.

I do have friends & cousins with children.

I've worked Christmas in previous jobs so that others could have the time off.

Some of them were people with children.
Some of them lived far from their families so would have to travel to visit them.
Some had elderly relatives who didn't have many christmases left.
None of these reasons trumps the others.

None of them "expected" me to work so they didn't have to, I volunteered. The second someone told me I was less entitled to Christmas off than them because I didn't have children would have been the second I stopped volunteering to work.

Through a sheer fluke, we managed to have one baby to term. With a long stint of infertility then an even longer stint of secondary infertility with a scattering of losses along the way I'm no stranger to those fuckwit comments over the last decade.

At a recent family funeral, my BIL was talking to MIL's neighbours about his wife's pregnancy and the neighbour made several remarks about "waiting for me to get a move on again" deliberately when she knew I was near enough to hear. I don't even fucking know her, who the hell does she think she is dictating my reproductive events. The third time she did it, I gave a very sarcastic reply and resolved that the next time she does it, I've decided that I will actually confront her and that it won't be pleasant. For her that is. It will give me immense satisfaction though.

to all who have experienced infertility. It's shit. It really is.

On the flipside of this, what SHOULD you say or do to support someone who has just revealed they are struggling/unable to have kids?

Genuine question: as someone who considers herself happily child free (deliberate choice of wording for my personal circumstances) I find it difficult to put myself in the shoes of people who want kids but can't have them, so if it comes up I don't know what to say that may help. Is there anything that can be said? Or is it literally a case of 'I'm so sorry, I'm here if you need me'?

One of my friends has one child but found it exceptionally hard to conceive- she won't be having another child & shouldn't have to explain why to certain ppl

No kids - yes I'm sorry, here to have a chat if u like is a good response.

How does a person come to terms with no having children when they really want them??

On the Xmas thing, whether someone has 20 kids or none, Xmas duties should be divided up fairly with everyone doing their equal share. Why should I miss time with my husband, parents, siblings, nieces and nephews or struggle to fit them all in (some live hundreds of miles away) every year because I don't have kids? Are my family less important? Happy to muck in and do my share but I'm not a complete mug!

Nokids - Speaking personally one thing that I think is powerful is acknowledging it. Sometimes the most meaningful thing you can say is "I had no idea, I'm really sorry, this is so unfair, are you OK, what do you need?". Rather than rushing to resolve it, fix it, or offer reassurance that may make matters worse. As you can see on this thread, people have a desire to erase, ignore, or speak over the pain for some reason, and it can be very invalidating, and can really exacerbate feelings of being excluded or abnormal or even worthless.

NoKidsTwoCats

I would just not bring it up tbh. If someone comes to you and asks for advise about it then your response is fine and taking about it / offering support is great otherwise just don't mention the subject

I think this thread is really quite sad for lots of reasons. Obviously partly because of some of the stupid / insensitive things that people who don't have children have had said to them, (and I want to be clear that I think some of these comments are appalling). But on the flip-side, and I hate to say it, but this thread really shows why it's so difficult to manage work and childcare, and why so many of my friends have either quit work completely to become SAHMs or taken demotion / part-time work instead. I work full-time and have two 2 DCs. I regularly work through my breaks and stay on late etc to help other colleagues, and I pay a lot of money each month on nursery fees to try and juggle work and home, but sometimes things so wrong and I need to take leave for sick kids / nursery closures etc. It makes me really sad to think that my colleagues without kids are secretly sitting there seething each time I need to take leave for childcare reasons.

KitKat1985 the issue is that some people think having children makes them a priority over everyone else and therefore expect people without children to just work christmad every year because they don't have anything important to do.

I am very happy to help people with children but if it became expected that my needs always be trumped by people with children I would stop doing that completely

I don’t think anyone has said they are ‘seething’ if someone needs time off for a sick child?

KitKat I never have a problem with a colleague needing a dig out now and again, whether it's for childcare, to visit an ill parent or relative, because they have exams to study for, or whatever.

But if parents are sometimes sensing a resentment from colleagues, the people to blame are those like some of the posters on this thread who assume and expect that their needs will always take priority, that they are in a special group who must always be put first, and who basically behave with a total lack of insensitivity to colleagues without children.

If there was complete give and take between all groups of colleagues, regardless of the circumstances for needing a dig out now and again, there would be nothing for you to feel sad about.

But so often there isn't, and those without children are made to feel 'less' than those with children. That can wear down good will very quickly.

On the flipside of this, what SHOULD you say or do to support someone who has just revealed they are struggling/unable to have kids?

Tell them you are very sorry to hear that. That you will be there for them if they want to get pissed/ rant/ cry and take your cue from them.

Don't offer platitides/ stories of miracle pregnancies/ crystals or prayer leaflets or suggest that maybe they aren't meant to be parents. Don't bombard them like my mum did with all sorts of links to woo and half-baked scientific studies of types of infertility that don't apply to your friends. Don't tell them that a holiday or relaxing will solve it. Don't say "just adopt" or "get a surrogate like yer wan Kardashian"

If you have to announce your pregnancy, do it privately a few days before you go public with the news and preferably in a situation where she can gracefully wish you well and slink off home quickly to have a little cry so at the end of a coffee meet up on neutral territory or over text/email if more appropriate.

We can be simultaneously happy for our friend's pregnancies yet sad for our own lack of the same. Be understanding if they give a flimsy excuse for not attending a child-based event. Some friends of mine had to distance themselves from me when I finally got pregnant and I understood it wasn't personal. Down the line we've reconnected and all is well.

My DH is frontline NHS in A&E, last Xmas was the first he's had off in ten years. We have two children who are too young to understand that daddy has to work but do understand that daddy's not there.

It makes me sad but at the same time it is the nature of the job he does and we get on with it. In previous years those with young DC got Xmas off and worked NY but that's not the case anymore.

I have been childless and he's had to work, been going through a miscarriage and he's had to work. Unfortunately some jobs are like that and we've always just got on with it.

kitkat - I think you're confusing two things

• Individual choices to help others out by swapping shifts, covering jobs, etc. I suspect anyone who is childless and basically a decent person does this regularly to help others out without even thinking about it, and definitely without "seething".

• Systematic discrimination which would mean that those without kids are always forced to work the more inconvenient or unusual hours so that those with them can spend time with children.

I would also point out that, in heterosexual couples, childcare is as much a man's responsibility as a woman's, and yet it is so often the women who have to do this juggling act - which is unequal and unfair.

Childminders and nannies wont do childcare on Christmas, boxing or new years day so i would need to look after my child.

I'm a bit reluctant to post, because I eventually had children, but I clearly remember the 8 years of trying to get pregnant, losing babies, medical tests and hoping then despairing. I had no way of knowing then that it wouldn't always be like that.
I found that there was a strange reluctance to admit that true, permanent infertility exists. It's like people think that pretending everything is/will be fine will make it true (and easier for them because they don't have to think about it probably). If I challenged that by saying that actually we probably would never be able to have a baby, the reaction was either dismissive or irritated, as if I was somehow breaking the rules. When I moaned to my mother about all the charting and shagging according to the calendar, she told me that this meant I didn't want children.
I have a friend who was very open about her struggles and who had round after round of IVF. She never gave up hope until she literally had nothing left to pay for another try. Even now when she is in her 50's, people say unbelievably ignorant things about her just needing to get drunk and relax, or how lovely and easy her life must be(this is always from people who know her and know about her struggles). She says you never get used to it and it never gets any easier. I believe her and I wish I could make it easier for her.
I am only too aware of my own privilege but I hope that my own experiences have made me more sensitive to people who might be struggling. Or even just irritated by the idea that only motherhood can provide a fulfilling life. I don't ask if people have children. Usually you hear some anecdote that tells you one way or the other, but if not I don't pry. In a work situation it's not relevant anyway. I'm a great believer in keeping work and home separate and I think that generally this is a good idea.

Oops, I posted too soon. Meant to add this:

I would also point out that, in heterosexual couples, childcare is as much a man's responsibility as a woman's, and yet it is so often the women who have to do this juggling act - which is unequal and unfair. I do resent it when a female colleague is frazzled and desperate and I have to step in because her husband is too important/senior/well-paid to be bothered with the care of the child they had together. Why does it fall on me, more than him? (Obviously, this is not the case with lone parents).