To start a thread about things you should not say or do to childless people

[user1485342611]

As someone who can't have children I have sometimes been shocked at how tactless and insensitive some people can be - the latest being a colleague who objects to having to work over Christmas because 'Christmas is about children. Staff with families should get priority'.

I do have a family, it just doesn't include children of my own.

AIBU to be fed up of this kind of stuff and to ask other posters in similar situations to share hurtful acts and words in the hope that it might educate those not in our situation and who don't always think before they speak/act?

I had 6 cycles of IVF to get my boy - in that ‘childless’ period of time there were 36 babies born to various people in my busy Office and family, some were on their second and in one case 3rd baby by the time I got my BFP. The thoughtless and frankly stupid things that I was told and advice I was given throughout that time are something I could write a book about they were that plentiful!

However, the worst one was by a woman in my team who was, usually, quite nice or so I thought who upon hearing about my first treatment ( I was always very open and honest about it) said and I quote “oh you don’t want to be doing that IVF it can lead to spaz babies you’re better off without”

An actual fully grown adult who I suspect actually possessed a brain said that to me.

The things that apparently normal people say to couples struggling to conceive are sometimes too preposterous to comprehend.

I know you don't believe all of that. I shouldn't have singled you out accrual. That's an amalgamation of everything said to me this evening...

I'm sure some people applauded and had no idea why but the broader point is that the story had emotional resonance for a reason. Stories like that provide a needed source of public validation for mothers and that while it may hurt some people without children to hear statements like that, it is not in and of itself insensitive to tell them.

juddyrockingcloggs

I think your assumption about the brain may be incorrect. What a complete fucking moron.

I'm so glad to read the IVF worked out for you in the end

*StickThatInYourPipe
*
thank you ❤️

I think you may be right. I’m usually such a forthright person but I have to be honest that comment left me speechless.

Looking back, I wish I had made a complaint about it but at the time I just didn’t. I thought about her comment the day I gave birth and thought how very wrong and idiotic she is.

juddyrockingcloggs

In all honestly, I think I would have done exactly the same, don't beat yourself up about not reporting her. You did what was right for your own mental health at that time and I completely applaud you for that. Getting into an HR battle with her would only have given her attention and reminded you more and more of the fucking venom she is spitting out.

'The truth is parents get a lot of support and understanding and validation for their choices, whilst childless women are judged, questioned, patronised and, as can be seen from this thread, misunderstood and deemed unworthy of consideration.**'

Yes yes to this. All of it.

Stories like that provide a needed source of public validation for mothers and that while it may hurt some people without children to hear statements like that, it is not in and of itself insensitive to tell them.

Why do you keep on labouring this point? What do you want from the people on this thread who don’t have children to do? Agree that mothers need public validation and to be fawned over and told that they are wonderful and doing a good job, blah, blah, blah?

Well actually, as a mother, I don’t need that and no other mother I know does either.

There is a mountain of support on this site and others for parents.

There is little for childless women and this thread has been constantly invaded by women with children who deem it offensive that a) a woman with no children might have a personal life and thus require Christmas off b) a woman with no children might dare to go onto a public forum where most threads are not actually about children and c) that women without children might want one fucking thread to discuss their experiences without being patronised by smug mummies who thinks the world revolves around them.

And although I’ve got my children after years of being told I wouldn’t, it is different to being childless for a year after marriage then getting knocked up within a month. It is also different to the stories on this thread of women who will never have their miracle baby and just want somewhere to vent and try and explain what hurts them. That interview is one of those things.

zeezeek

I think I might love you

Thanks stick

Most of the time people are just generally thoughtless because they are inherently self absorbed but MOST people don't mean to be hurtful or offensive. They just fail to imagine that life exists differently for others outside their bubble.

Some people might think, in reference to Christmas, that the disappointment of a child under, say, 16 might be greater if their parent has to work than the disappointment of a childless adult not being with their family on Christmas day and that the parents of this adult would be more understanding and able to handle the situation.

Some people might think, in reference to Christmas, that the disappointment of a child under, say, 16 might be greater if their parent has to work than the disappointment of a childless adult not being with their family on Christmas day and that the parents of this adult would be more understanding and able to handle the situation

Those people would have totally missed the point. Whether my parents are more disappointed than someone else’s child if I’m not there for Christmas isn’t relevant. Every person should have as much right as everyone else to spend time off as they choose without being made to feel like the wicked witch of the West by people screeching “won’t somebody think of the children?”

I genuinely can't see what some people on this thread find so hard. Let's try an analogy. I am a humanities academic. Humanities academic jobs are hard to get. I have a lot of friends who wanted a job like mine but didn't get it. Some of them even applied for my actual job. Unrelatedly, I sometimes find my job very hard and stressful. I do not go on about how hard my job is to friends who would like my job. I talk about it, but to other academics - people who I know don't want what I have. I don't think this is hard or oppressive; it feels like basic courtesy that came quite easily. If someone publicly announced that my job was more important than anyone else's I wouldn't be touched, I'd be embarrassed and think they were an idiot. I wouldn't tell someone who has a job they find boring and unfulfilling that I just couldn't imagine life without an intellectually engaging career, or tell them that they couldn't know what it's like to be creatively stimulated. I sometimes work very long hours; I don't tell friends who work 9-5 that they don't know what it's like to be tired from working hard or that I just don't know how they fill all their spare time. Again, none of this is hard. If you find it hard, it's possible that you're not a very kind person.

zeek after making my original post I've only responded to other posters questions / statements. I don't deserve that amount of aggression or rudeness from you in response to anything I've said and I never discussed Christmas or any of that other bullshit. Its totally out of order to put all of that nonsense on me or to lash out at me the way you've just done. I don't want anything than to say what I've said and if anyone asks me anything about it, I'll continue to respond.

Margaret I don't know if that was directed at me. If so, I disagree with your analogy captures the point I was making. If not, they hey ho.

I can't believe the number of posters who have come onto a thread like this to go on about people with children and how everyone should respond to them instead... it's just baffling!

I am very lucky; so far I haven't experienced any infertility issues, albeit I did think I would be childless through not meeting the right person for a while. So I know nothing about it. What I do want to be is a better person; someone who doesn't upset her friends by asking or saying the wrong things - and threads like this, with posters who have been amazingly open and honest and brave to say how they feel are incredibly important for stopping people like me from putting their size 9's in it, even with good intentions, and helping us to empathise.

Saying, "yeah yeah I know it sucks having your heart broken a little more every month but hey, I deserve validation and support for having the one thing that you don't have" or even in one case, "oh but you get such amazing holidays!" is just bizarre.

If you're not a lawyer, you wouldn't go into a thread about legal expertise and give your opinion on what the law should say. If you haven't lost a parent, you wouldn't blunder into a thread about parental bereavement and start telling people how to grieve or that at least they've had an inheritance whilst you still have to deal with your mother every day. Why is this topic different?!

Well yes it was aimed at you London because you're the current incarnation of this repeated message, and because you genuinely seem not to understand why some people find it inappropriate and hurtful that you've come on a thread about childlessness to talk about how much love and support mothers need. Why don't you think the analogy works?

If you work somewhere that requires a few people to be on duty over Christmas but not everybody, it can be tough.

I am sorry if it feels like the point I am trying to make how much support mothers need.

The point I am trying to make is that comments like KWs are common and I realised reading the thread that they caused offence to some posters. I wanted to explain that KW (and other parents) aren't making these comments to denigrate people without children in anyway but rather are saying so to support other parents. I hoped providing that POV would if not lessen the pain when hearing such comments in future at least make them seem less offensive.

Margaret if its still not clear why I don't think the analogy works, I can try to come up with another one in the morning.

I also didn't realise it was widely felt this thread was only for people without children. I would have assumed a thread like that would be in the infertility section rather than AIBU which is normally open to comment.

It's not about whether or not you have children, it's about whether or not you're going to actually try and engage with what the many childless women in this thread have said or not. There are many thoughtful, sensitive comments from women with children here.

I think what you seem to not understand is that what's so hurtful and upsetting about the Kate Winslet quote is the 'only' part. If it was 'and she said 'being a mother is a very important job too'' then absolutely nobody would take issue with that. You can absolutely celebrate motherhood and the work of mothers without saying that it is literally the only worthwhile thing to do with your life. And if you can't, then you need to take a good hard look at yourself.

There is a programme on BBC 1 tomorrow night called Young and Sterile..........My Choice at 11.30pm for those who are interested.

Well KW was actually misquoted by pp which I should have mentioned but didn't want to be petty. She told the queen she enjoyed motherhood more than acting and the queen said it was the 'best job' from what I've read.

Clearly parenting isn't the only worthwhile thing someone can do with their lives. I don't think I've ever met anyone who thinks that's the case as its a patently absurd notion.

A) the Telegraph has 'only': www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/queen-elizabeth-II/9693795/Kate-Winslet-collects-CBE-as-the-Queen-tells-her-motherhood-is-the-only-job.html

B) 'best' is only very marginally better than 'only', in any case. There is absolutely no need to set up a hierarchy like that. There is no possible way to interpret that other than motherhood being elevated at the expense of other life achievements and choices.

I also didn't realise it was widely felt this thread was only for people without children. I would have assumed a thread like that would be in the infertility section rather than AIBU which is normally open to comment

The thread is asking about things you should not say or do to childless people

Of course the thread is open for anyone to comment

In a thread where people are posting about significant grief and suffering at being involuntarily childless, one might hope that contributions about how to interact with women who are - through no fault of their own - childless by circumstance, would perhaps acknowledge what these women are saying.

There have been some wonderful comments from women with and without children, and I am beyond grateful for the compassion and thoughtfulness they have demonstrated

Women in the infertility section are all too well aware of unhelpful things people have said to them about their childlessness

Women who've not experienced infertility tend not to hang out on the infertility boards

The opportunity to be able to hear the honest and raw experiences of childless women, and how other women treat their childlessness, is somewhat limited if this thread was posted in the infertility section

As I've said in previous posts, I don't expect people to instinctively know what is and isn't a helpful way to support someone experiencing the grief of involuntary childlessness. That's why I'm delighted when the opportunity to share my own experiences presents itself, as if it helps just one person by having heard my perspective, I'm really pleased

There have been some wonderful comments from posters who've said the thread has been insightful and revealing, as it offered them a different perspective, and they have said they now feel they have a better idea about how they could best be kindly and supportive to childless friends or colleagues.

I am glad to have been able to have a voice to put across this POV in a forum like AIBU

All I would hope for would be acknowledgement and compassion - and I'm very grateful to those who've offered this with their posts - childless or not.

Okay, I understand your point of view.

I also think I understand KW's and her intent as well but I do understand why you are unhappy.

x-post with banana. My first post was in response to Margaret.

As I've said before, I have absolutely found the thread very enlightening and it will help me navigate conversations with 4 close friends that are dealing with various forms of infertility / childlessness. The insight has been really valuable as some things like offering hopeful stories being hurtful isn't at all intuitive (for me at least).