To start a thread about things you should not say or do to childless people

[user1485342611]

As someone who can't have children I have sometimes been shocked at how tactless and insensitive some people can be - the latest being a colleague who objects to having to work over Christmas because 'Christmas is about children. Staff with families should get priority'.

I do have a family, it just doesn't include children of my own.

AIBU to be fed up of this kind of stuff and to ask other posters in similar situations to share hurtful acts and words in the hope that it might educate those not in our situation and who don't always think before they speak/act?

The worst group to be in is the group of people who desperately want children but have had a loss. My son did not die 'for a reason' or 'for the best', fuck off mate

Sosks, I'm so sorry. People can be assholes. They think they're trying to make you feel better, but really they're just trying to make themselves feel better so hurtful

The worst part of it for me is the assumption that you 'get over it'. The final blow of my 20 year journey was a few years ago now so no-one expects a scan photo or pregnancy announcement to cut me to the core any more. People who know (family mainly) think nothing of inviting babies to events and not mentioning it to me because I must be 'over it'. You never get over the sense of loss and something lacking in your life, never.
When my only pregnancy failed my mum phoned me for a chat on several occasions and tried to change the subject by talking about how much of a joy her grandchildren are. She honestly did not make a link between not having children and not having grandchildren.

Sosks so sorry for your loss. I have to say, I agree with you that it must be the worst group to be in.

I'm fortunately not in this group, but used to console myself after a failed round of IVF and negative test with the thought of well, at least it's not going to be a miscarriage on an ectopic, so I can well imagine that having a loss would be even harder. It just felt it would have been so much harder and crueller to have got that little bit closer to success to then have it snatched away.

I don't presume to know how you feel and hope this isn't an inappropriate thing to write, but having to hear thoughtless comments from people like "everything happens for a reason" or 'well at least you know you can get pregnant" must just stick the knife in a bit more. Would people give platitudes like everything happens for a reason to someone with cancer?? And exactly what reason would that be anyway. The "at least you know you can get pregnant" comment which I think people who've had a loss frequently hear is fuck all help either. The goal isn't to get pregnant, it's to have a baby and being pregnant isn't much use if there is no baby at the end of it.

I hope I haven't said anything out of line and I'm sorry for what you have been through and that you've been on the receiving end of totally insensitive and hurtful comments at what's already a bloody difficult time.

sosks I lost 2 babies and you're right those are the worst things to hear, along with 'sometimes it's natures way' which my MIL said to me.
I felt like screaming that nature could fuck off. But I didn't.

Don't say to people who are getting married after some time of living together "oh, it'll be children next then!" etc. We married after trying for children for several years and our lovely daughter was born nearly 5 years later. Timing of marriage was important but due to other (wider) family reasons.

Saying that, I'm an older mother and have been asked if she's my grandchild....

I've been reading this thread - I'm on Page 23 as I - as I have two close friends struggling with infertility, a another who can't conceive desired 2nd childand one who wants children desperately but is single. I really wanted to learn and for the most part I have. Saying nothing but I'm 'sorry' didn't occur to me as when people generally face difficulties words of hope or encouragement are often welcomed. I imagine that's why most people do it and it really doesn't come from a thoughtless place.

With that said there are a few things I've found hard to understand and I. The hope of greater understanding say / ask:

1. Why the Kate W interview is seen as insensitive? Surely mothers can celebrate being a parent as an achievement and worthwhile without it being taken as those without children are worthless. While I'm sure it's nothing compared to the pain of infertility, mother's to young children struggle in our own ways and benefit from public validation and should be able to have it.

1. Treating people fairly and treating all people the same are not the same thing at all. As a society we recognise that certain groups have different needs and what is fair is to cater to those needs. The elderly, the disabled, young children, women on maternity leave all get different treatment by law but that is fair. An elderly person needs priority seating, disabled people need the wheelchair bay on a bus even if that means others have to dismount, parents with young children and others with caring responsibilities need more flexible working arrangements. While children are a choice and a want on an individual level, society itself NEEDS children otherwise it will collapse. When we are old there'd be no doctors, nurses, taxes, firemen etc so everyone long term benefits from thebirth of children which is why the government and some employers put in place measures to support working families.

1. The posters who've come on here to say they HATE children yet belong to a parenting forum are peculiar

I agree with point 2, and so do the vast majority of people on this thread. What people are reacting against is the systematic deprioritisation of those without kids when it comes to things like annual leave, and the assumption on which those decisions are based that their needs and wishes rank lower on a scale.

There is a huge difference between an individual getting preferential treatment on the basis of need one time, and a systematic attitude that assumes that one groups needs consistently surpass another's.

With regard to point 3, women come on here for all kinds of reasons and are welcomed. Much of the site is actually not about parenting at all, though you might not be aware of that if you post constantly in the parenting sub-sections! There's room for everyone.

'Why the Kate W interview is seen as insensitive?'

Apparently the Queen had been discussing KW's various professional achievements with her, and then mentioned her being a mother and said 'its the only job'. So her 25 year career with all her awards and rave reviews and the tons of work she has done pales into insignificance next to having had 3 children, according to the Queen at least. And the fact that KW shared this story on a chat show, and was apparently very emotional while telling it, suggests that she agrees with the Queen that being a mother is 'the only job'. I'm sure you can see why that would leave those of us without children feeling somewhat flat

And being on the other side of this, it seems that mothers already get tons of validation and celebration

Ugh, and if it is the ‘only job’ I’m not massively impressed that the Queen skived off it with nannies and boarding schools.

I hated the ‘children are my greatest achievement’ idea when I was childless and I still do now I have a DC (fertility treatments). Is it having them that’s an achievement? Then mine is greater than yours because I had to pursue/endure so much to get pregnant! Obviously nonsense. Or is it an achievement watching them ‘succeed’? That suggests that parents control how well their child fares in life - so having an autistic child then might be less of an achievement if they couldn’t live independently? Obviously nonsense again.

I consider having had my son my greatest piece of good luck and I am very grateful but I don’t think I ‘achieved’ anything by having him and so far keeping him alive. This is pretty basic normal human existence.

Additionally, I'm not sure another person can be an "achievement". It denies the child all kinds of agency and bodes ill for their teenage years as they start to define themselves independently of parental mores and rules. What happens to the woman, then, too? It's not good for her either, is it?

I don't think that's what parents mean by achievement.

In my experience when that's said people are referring to the love and devotion and self sacrifice involved in successful parenting- success being making sure your child feels loved and secure. For many people - myself included- it is the most fulfilling thing I do and I don't think statements saying as much are worthy of derision and equally they aren't meant to imply that life without children is without its own fulfilment and achievement.

I agree that mothers get praise and validation. All I'm saying is that they need it and publicly giving it shouldn't become taboo as it isn't meant to belittle those without children but to support those with.

I'm not trying to compare the pain of infertility with the difficulties of being a mother but it is still frightening and challenging in many ways including loss of professional life (see the thread about careers after children which includes lots of discrimination / illegal redundancies), radical changes in your interpersonal relationships and your body, hormones and mind.

My point is just that all the banging on people do is its own form of support not an attempt to make non-parents feel worthless and I hope it can be taken as such even if it can stir up raw emotions

Gee. Thanks for the parent-spraining there.

So if you make an assertion about what parents mean and I say I think they mean something else I'm immediately in the wrong and paren-spraining, right?

But what makes you think this thread, of all the threads, is the right one to come on to put forth your view about how much public admiration mothers need? I don't necessarily disagree with all of what you've said but there's an appropriate time and a place and a thread about things not to say to people who can't have children isn't likely to be it.

In the same way that it's ok to be struggling or need support with your new baby but your best friend who has just suffered their fifth miscarriage or another failed round of IVF might not be the best person to lean on for that.

OK LondonGirl I take your point about that, but all the love and devotion towards hopefully making them feel loved and happy (and frankly when do you know that’s worked? I had a friend who killed himself in his 30s so you could never say ‘child happiness achieved!’) is still not an achievement - it’s a task, and as you say, fulfilling, but it is basically determined by our biological instinct in the same way that mammals are reared by their mothers for a certain number of months or years rather than abandoned. I don’t think it’s praiseworthy (however satisfying), and for me, an achievement is something worthy of praise. But I suppose that is subjective and for many it would be a satisfying task without the need for external validation of any kind.

Well said AccrualIntentions

Accrual-- I thought this thread was to educate people on what not to say to people suffering from infertility. I understand a lot of it but I think some posters requests aren't reasonable and better understanding of why would help alleviate bad feeling when its done.

If you think that's wildly inappropriate for the thread then okay but I don't think so

I think a lot of people see parenting as more than a task and as something worthy of praise.

Its not an unusual position to hold and painting people who make remarks in that vein as bonkers or intentionally insensitive to me seems unreasonable. Of course you can disagree as we are talking about views not facts but nothing you've said even remotely convinces me otherwise.

I'm not here looking for a bunfight. I've learned what I can and I've tried to explain why certain acts parents do are necessary, shouldn't be censured and aren't at all intended to cause offence. Take that as you will but it was written with good intentions.

Saying nothing but I'm 'sorry' didn't occur to me as when people generally face difficulties words of hope or encouragement are often welcomed. I imagine that's why most people do it and it really doesn't come from a thoughtless place.

That's the point of threads like these though - so people who are involuntarily childless can offer their POV about what is and isn't helpful

I don't expect people to automatically know what to say, that's why I'm quite militant about being very open about my infertility, and how many infertile couples would wish to be supported

Hope and encouragement are lovely and thoughtful - but what isn't helpful is projecting

Imagine a friend is diagnosed with cancer

Wishing them well for their treatment and saying you hope it's successful, saying it must be so difficult and asking how best you can support them - no one wouldn't be grateful for messages of support like this

But other things might be trickier

'You'll get there, I know it' (you don't know that, no one does, and that's my greatest fear)

'Have you thought about radiotherapy?' (I have a team of specialists who are recommending the right treatment for me, your suggestions for how to manage my medical condition are well intentioned but desperately unhelpful, as these are issues I wrestle with every day)

'Well at least there's always a radical mastectomy' (any sentence starting with 'at least...' is very likely to minimise a situation of great pain and suffering)

'everything happens for a reason' (what fucking reason is that?)

'life doesn't send you what you can't handle' (what did I do to deserve this?)

I'm not for one moment trying to equate infertility with cancer. But on a previous thread like this, a comment from one poster really stuck with me. She had experienced both infertility and breast cancer - and thankfully had successfully beaten both conditions. She said that during her cancer treatment, she very much wanted to live - whereas during her infertility treatment, she wanted to die

That really resonated with me.

LondonGirl83

Would you be able to advise what has been unreasonable in this thread apart from the achievements issue (which has made up very little of his thread) please? I just want to make sure I am being considerate when talking to friends with children in the future.

Thanks for the sarcasm. Like I've said from my original post, I think parents (including Kate W) should be able to say how they feel about being mothers and offer mothers support and validation without being censured as insensitive. I thought it was worth explaining why so others might better understand why its necessary and its true intentions. More fool me.

Also, like I said in my OP, certain posters arguments around fairness and children being a lifestyle choice that isn't there problem seemed flawed. I definitely don't believe most posters were saying this but enough that again I made a statement putting forward a different viewpoint that I hoped would be helpful.