To start a thread about things you should not say or do to childless people

[user1485342611]

As someone who can't have children I have sometimes been shocked at how tactless and insensitive some people can be - the latest being a colleague who objects to having to work over Christmas because 'Christmas is about children. Staff with families should get priority'.

I do have a family, it just doesn't include children of my own.

AIBU to be fed up of this kind of stuff and to ask other posters in similar situations to share hurtful acts and words in the hope that it might educate those not in our situation and who don't always think before they speak/act?

*their not there

I don’t think me disagreeing with you London is a bunfight. I hope there are others like me who do not see parenting as worthy of praise, as I don’t think it’s a very odd stance to take. Equally, the love I have for my child is very strong, but probably determined by my biological maternal instincts and I don’t think it’s any ‘better’ than the love others may have for partners or pets.

I stand by my feeling about the achievements in the context of work/public life - different I’m sure if it’s a group of mothers encouraging each other. I remember being at a training event and we were asked about ‘greatest achivement’ - obviously in the context it meant professional and every person at my table said ‘my children’ which delayed us making any progress through the interminable training and did seem very egocentric.

banana and others who I admire have made excellent posts, addressing the ‘what not to say to people with infertility/no children’ and I think that talking about the challenges/fears of parenting and the achievement of having children is a helpful pointer of what people could avoid if they wish to be sensitive (as OP was looking at examples of). No, I don’t think people are being intentionally insensitive or bonkers to say such things, but I do think they are sometimes being thoughtless (again, dependent on context, and how incessantly they discuss such things).

LondonGirl83

You said there was a lot of unreasonable points raised and I asked you to point them out.

No posters (to my memory of this thread) have said they don't understand the struggles parents have or that they wouldn't help out in situations at work etc. It was the posters who came on here spouting that employees shouldn't all be treated fairly in the workplace that skewed that part on the conversation. Most people who disagreed with this also said that they have covered shifts, including Christmas, to help out another employee for childcare reasons but they did expect at least a thank you. It should not to be expected that their life outside of work is worth less than those with children.

Regarding the point about achievements,
I would be really sad if my mum said I was her biggest achievement. It would put too much pressure on me to live my life to her expectations so yes, I think it is an odd thing to say.

Scipio, I don't think you were looking for a fight at all! I just wanted to be clear I wasn't posting with the intention of winding people up! I've found the thread to be very enlightening for the most part and will be taking a lot of it on board.

Like I said, there are 4 people very close to me going through some form of involuntary childlessness (or 2nd childlessness) at the moment and I really wanted to figure out how to do the right thing.

Stick-- there were a few posters who said they felt resentment at parents leaving at 5pm to pick up children (it was a solicitor who said that specifically) and a few others who said children are a lifestyle choice that should not impact them in anyway. Like I said, it wasn't the majority of posters. Similarly it was only 2 or 3 posters slagging off Kate W as insensitive. I'm not in anyway criticising the entire thread.

I’m another who struggled for many years before I had my children and indeed thought I never would. Now I have them they are very precious to me. However, they are not my achievement and they are not my job. Apart from the fact that claiming a child as an achievement is putting undue pressure on them, it is also demeaning to my actual achievements - my work, my qualifications, the things I earned through hard work.
They are also not my job. That would be massively insulting to them.

Londongirl, as app said, you are parentsplaining and it is really tedious.

LondonGirl83

I cba to read back through the whole thread to find the post about the solicitor betting pissed off about parents leaving at 5pm on the dot. I am imagining she was probably annoyed becuase she ends up picking up the additional workload, ends up staying later than her contracted hours and doesn't earn any more money or respect for doing so.

I find it interesting you come onto a thread like this, pick up on comments very very few posters have made or agreed with, ignored all of the heartbreaking stories and personal experiences and basically explained to all us childless women how we should not be offended by women with children, no matter how insensitive or how upset the comment has made us.

I have not ignored them and I have never said that childless women shouldn't be offended by women with children, you are simply making that up.

I have repeatedly said I've learned from the stories and will incorporate what I've learned in my interaction with my 4 close friends. The very first post I made was entirely about thanking people for what I've learned and how I'll adopt what they've said. My second post raised a couple of questions about other behaviour that was deemed insensitive that I thought sharing my perspective on could lead to better understanding. Understanding because I don't want to see the behaviour stopped (praise for mothers like what KW did) but equally I don't want people to misunderstand why its being done and why its necessary even if it may at times bring up raw emotions for those suffering from infertility.

Thanks zeezeek, I find repeating myself to explain my intentions tedious as well... At least I'm not rude.

You said My point is just that all the banging on people do is its own form of support not an attempt to make non-parents feel worthless and I hope it can be taken as such even if it can stir up raw emotions please explain what is meant by that if it is not that we shouldn't be offended and should just offer support to the struggles of parenthood.

But if people find things (like the KW interview) insensitive and would rather not hear it, are they supposed to care that it's "well intentioned" or "comes from a good place?"

I feel like I've learned from this thread because I had only limited experience of fertility treatment and the all-consuming fear that we might never be able to have children.

I'm pregnant now and I don't ever want to become one of those parents who forgets how hard it was, and would put someone else in the position of feeling like I felt when I heard some of those "well intentioned" comments. That makes the posts from bananafish and others really valuable and, tbh, they're the point of the thread. Not explaining why something that someone has found hurtful or insensitive isn't actually insensitive because the person saying it meant well. I don't think it's helpful to deny someone feeling how they feel just because you don't think they should be upset by it.

I once had a fertility "expert" tell me that I would never have any children of my own (this in the middle of a very intrusive examination he was conducting). I fled in tears.

8 years later I proved him wrong.

I think people can and should avoid unnecessarily hurting people.

For some on this thread the mere mention of children causes pain but I doubt anyone would argue general public discussion of children on TV is insensitive and anyone doing so should be shouted down as insensitive.

I'm saying within a spectrum of behaviour , I don't think KW or her statements should be shouted down. Mother's need that type of public validation and so the statements serve a positive purpose and aren't designed to hurt those without children in anyway.

Of course, everyone is free to disagree with me but again my hope was by explaining why her statements are important that it might make them less offensive to those that took issue.

LondonGirl83

Firstly, I don't think the type of statement made by KW would only offend childless people.

Secondly, the majority of people on here have not said the mention of children offends them but when friends / coworkers announce pregnancies etc, it can feel like a punch in the stomach. That's nothing against those women, just a reminder about what we don't have but desperately want. I don't think anyone has said the mere mention of children offends them.

Mother's need that type of public validation and so the statements serve a positive purpose and aren't designed to hurt those without children in anyway.

No they don’t.* The only validation a mother needs is from her own children.*
They may not be designed to hurt childless women, but along with all the other crap comments that they have to endure and the impression they get from parents that their lives are less worthy or empty or the stereotypes that everyone assumes is a true reflection, it just becomes another nail in the coffin somto speak.* And it’s all really unnecessary.*

The truth is parents get a lot of support and understanding and validation for their choices, whilst childless women are judged, questioned, patronised and, as can be seen from this thread, misunderstood and deemed unworthy of consideration.**

I was childless by choice for years, them childless due to miscarriage, so I know where you're coming from.

But on this

A colleague who objects to having to work over Christmas because 'Christmas is about children. Staff with families should get priority

at my workplace people have to work on Christmas Eve/Christmas Day/Boxing Day. And before I had kids I always volunteered to work it so that people with kids could have the time off. Most child-free colleagues did the same. Because I do think there's a difference when someone has little kids who still believe in Santa. Not having their parent there is pretty shit. Whereas my parents/grandparents didn't mind waiting until Dec 27th or whenever to see me.

By that Tallulahoola do you mean you think childless people should be pushed aside within the workplace when it comes to annual leave?

Stick my entire point is that not everything that causes pain is offensive. I know no one has suggested simply talking about children is offensive even though it might be painful. Similarly I am saying that while some people may genuinely find what KW said painful it's not offensive or insensitive for the reasons I've laid out multiple times in my opinion. Honestly I'm. It even sure what you are disagreeing with anymore...

zeezeek not all mothers may need outside validation but many do for many reasons. KW cried and that audience clapped because they understood that. Not everyone will agree or understand of course which is fine. You have your view and I have mind.

To be honest I just think it's really crass of you to come onto a thread like this and go on about how not everyone causes offence and people really should support the women with children. Which pretty much every poster on here has said they have done anyway.
And as I have said, I don't think the comments made by KW are ONLY offensive to childless people.

I don't really understand the point you are trying to make as I think it's pretty obvious that people talking about children can cause pain to some people, you don't need to come on here to explain that's not offensive over and over again. We're not stupid we understand that no malice is intendened by that and no one suggested it in the first place.

Because I do think there's a difference when someone has little kids who still believe in Santa. Not having their parent there is pretty shit.

Loads of posters have said they had perfectly fine Christmases with a parent at works. This is about parents wanting to be with their children on Christmas Day. That’s understand but it doesn’t trump other people’s right to time off. Everyone’s private life is important.

KW cried and that audience clapped because they understood that.

Or that audience clapped because she's famous and they recognised it was the expected point to applaud.

I can't have been the only person rolling my eyes at that, but if I was in the audience I'm sure I'd have done the done thing and clapped too while inwardly thinking it was mawkish oversentimental bollocks.

Stick I'm trying to explain why I think KW was not insensitive. Despite everything I've said including expressing gratitude for what I've learned the only point you really want to make is that I am crass for putting forward a different view about one aspect of the thread where I felt it might be helpful. I really don't have anything else to say to you as it's pretty clear you aren't genuinely open to a discussion

Accrual- fine mothers need no public validation, KW is a weeping insensitive fool out to degrade people without children and most of the audience felt peer pressured into applauding her story. If that's what some of you choose to believe who am I to try to say differently!

None of any of that is what I'm saying. I don't think you get it, so I'll leave you be.