To start a thread about things you should not say or do to childless people

[user1485342611]

As someone who can't have children I have sometimes been shocked at how tactless and insensitive some people can be - the latest being a colleague who objects to having to work over Christmas because 'Christmas is about children. Staff with families should get priority'.

I do have a family, it just doesn't include children of my own.

AIBU to be fed up of this kind of stuff and to ask other posters in similar situations to share hurtful acts and words in the hope that it might educate those not in our situation and who don't always think before they speak/act?

I can’t see why Earl Grey’s age is relevant at all. Her post makes perfect sense. Sounds like someone is trying to decide between platitudes, either “you have plenty of time” or “it wasn’t meant to be”!

Thank goodness there are posters on here who are so helpful as to offer their expert opinions on strangers' fertility issues - I'm sure they'll have fantastic insights that the top fertility consultants at the top IVF clinics in the country who've treated Earl won't have considered at any point during the years (and £50,000) of IVF

What the ever loving fuck?

I mean aside from the many many posts where childless women have said over and over now desperately unhelpful it is when people offer unsolicited medical advice (based on fuck all knowledge or insight)

Do you think it's that fucking simple? I mean the clinics only measure FSH, AMH and antral follicle counts, monitor follicular response to ovarian stimulation, examine embryo development, fragmentation and offer detailed morphological grading to assess egg quality and likelihood of aneuploidy.

It's not like they bother running detailed testing to try and identify possible causes

Tests like

FBC, blood glucose, LFT’s, U&E’s, thyroid function – TSH, FT4, thrombophilia screen – anticardiolipin antibodies (IgG and IgM), antithrombin 111, factor V Leiden, factor II prothrombin gene, PAIP polymorphism, activated protein C resistance, Protein C/Protein S, lupus anticoagulant, MTHFR, autoimmune antibodies ( inc. anti-nuclear antibodies, thyroid peroxidase and anti-mitochondrial antibodies), Peripheral blood NK cytotoxicity assay, TH1:TH2 intracellular cytokine ratio, HLADQ alpha, Uterine nk cells, endometrial stem cells, hysteroscopic and laparoscopic diagnostics, Endometrial receptivity array

Or indeed male factor issues (which can also be age related) - in addition to standard count, motility and morphology, tests like DNA fragmentation, ROS and sperm aneuploidy

Why on earth would asking Earl's age be of ANY relevance?

How very very helpful to point out that she's been trying for a long time. I'm sure she's not acutely aware of this and that it isn't a source of immense pain

What the fuck does speculating on possible causes achieve? What do you propose to do about it even if age were a factor? What do you propose to offer as a solution that brings anything new to the table?

Why is it any of your fucking business?

Is it possible to even show a shred of common sense and compassion?

Apparently not.

It seems you have been trying for along time. Do you think it is age related?

What on earth made you think this was an appropriate thing to say?

Reasons for having Christmas at home as opposed to work are exponential, I have kids, my family is coming from Scotland, my widowed grandma is coming from Oz, my friends are coming to stay from Greece, my grandad is 90, I'd hate to think I missed his last Christmas; all reason I could use. Luckily, or not, however you look at it, I don't have to work it. I HATE Christmas, LOATHE it. And New Years is depressing as a bag of puppy's floating.

Intercom
Or maybe people (and I’m not referring to you) think my age is relevant because I’m such an old crone, that why the hell was I ever deluded and stupid enough to think there was ever a chance of me having children?! An equally inappropriate and insensitive opinion.

It seems you have been trying for along time. Do you think it is age related?.

It “seems” I’ve been trying for a long time. If you bothered reading my post, it says we’ve been trying for 4 years, it’s a matter of opinion as to whether that constitutes a long time or not. And it’s actually 5 years not 4, I’ve lost count of years along the way. So my age= 5 years older than it was when we started all of this shit. Since no one has given me a good reason as to why my age is relevant to this thread, I don’t see why I’m obliged to answer.

"Curious" to know the age of someone whose pain is evident even anonymously over the Internet? What the actual....! What's wrong with, "I'm so sorry you or anyone else has had to go through all that utter shit?"

Good for you and your huge range of choices and people from children to grandchildren, 2many. Isn't it lucky you have this thread filled with people who aren't so lucky to moan about how much you hate Christmas with them all?!

2ManyChoices
What’s any of that got to do with things you should not say or do to childless people (I.e. the subject of the thread)?

Think 2many posted on the wrong thread. That's all. The grandad is 90.

EarlGrey i cannot begin to feel your pain, but pain it must be.

I feel so bad I've said some of these things

Just to sidestep away from the thorny issue of Christmas for a moment...

I've noticed that whenever my lack of children comes up in conversation, there is a need to explain it away somehow. 'Oh! Did you not want them?/I guess you've been career-focused?/Did you not meet the right person?/Have you considered adopting?' and once, the absolute corker in an interview, 'Do you regret that?'

I'm never offended to be asked if I have children or not - most people do, and it's an easy way into a conversation - but once I've said, No, with a polite smile, then for god's sake LEAVE IT. If someone asked, 'Have you ever been to Bora Bora?' and you said no, you really wouldn't want to stand there listening to stories of how flights there were really cheap now, how their neighbour couldn't get to Bora Bora but then won tickets in a raffle at work and loved it, all accompanied by sad-face and photos of self in Bora Bora.

'If someone asked, 'Have you ever been to Bora Bora?' and you said no, you really wouldn't want to stand there listening to stories of how flights there were really cheap now, how their neighbour couldn't get to Bora Bora but then won tickets in a raffle at work and loved it, all accompanied by sad-face and photos of self in Bora Bora.'

love this! Perfect comparison

Rhiannonohara ..... you and people who think like you are what is wrong in this country. Bringing up rounded selfless children involves teaching them that they sometimes don’t get what they want. Be that a parent absent on Xmas day ...or even no presents! You need to look in the mirror and grow up or you will bring up a selfish over entitled child ... Xmas day is 24 hrs long so all of you out their share the burden & the joy. My mum worked lots of Christmas,s & we kids were happy as Larry then & now

I've never made any assumptions or comments about people without children because I don't see having children as an interesting facet of someone's personality. I just see the person in front of me. So often with people I work with I don't know that about them either way or focus in on it.

When I had my first child someone said to me 'Garlic make sure you dont lose the fun and interesting Garlic that you are, and make being Garlic the mum your whole identity.' I agree with that. Some women when they become parents lose their fun and mischief and become rather self righteous Sunday school teachers - and want everyone to know about it and have sympathy for them. Parties got very dull when people started having children - the women would all be in the sitting room talking babies and the men in the kitchen having more interesting conversations! I didnt want to get stuck talking about babies all the time - I wanted the fun chats (though sometimes found the men were actually talking about boilers and skirting boards!).

On the other hand, I have once or twice worked with Dads who have so barely mentioned their family when I know they do have children that I've wondered if they are over identifying as single people!

Ah well - we are all too quick to judge and make assumptions and there are many more variations not one ideal of household - I've see quite a few people make assumptions about gay colleagues (who are actually married with kids) that they are footloose and fancy free. I also particularly like the fact I'm very close with one of my grown up nieces and my nephew - and this is a different friendship and relationship to that with my kids. Very joyful and kind. So it shouldn't all be about the special status of children.

My goodness, this thread.

There can be no space where childless and childfree women can talk about our experiences without it being invaded by the full spectrum of "you selfish arseholes" to "I was childless too (until I had children), so I know just how you feel!" to "It's exactly the same when you only have one child!", to "Oh, but people judge you just as hard on your parenting skills, it's totally just as bad!".

Sigh.

Anyway, to return to the title of the original topic, here are my favourites, the ones that really made me wince (I am somewhere between childless & childfree in that I was never that bothered about having children, but then found out I couldn't anyway).

From a waiter: "So is it you or your husband with the problem?" Yes, a waiter who quizzed me at length on my lack of children.

From my mother, introducing me and my sister with two children to a friend : "This is number one daughter, she's got two children who we adore, they're the absolute light of our lives, and this is Sophocles who...works very hard". Thanks Mum.

From a previous boss, on being asked why the non-parents in the team were being repeatedly asked to cover for the parents, with this favour never being repaid: "Yes, it does seem a bit unfair I suppose, but you don't need to get home for anything, do you? Anyway, never mind - it'll all balance out when you're the one with kids asking for favours". I left that job.

From a former friend: "It's just not normal to not have kids. Can't you adopt?"

From my sister: "It really sucks that my kids won't have cousins". Yeah. That's what sucks.

I'm never offended to be asked if I have children or not - most people do, and it's an easy way into a conversation - but once I've said, No, with a polite smile, then for god's sake LEAVE IT

This has to be the rule to take away from this, surely? It's a simple point. You're not asking anyone to over analyse anyone else's life, you're not asking anyone to tread on eggshells or think 39 times before attempting to start a conversation. Just - "if the answer is "no", leave it at that."

TakeMe2Insanity

"oh you don't like children thats why you don't have any"

Someone once said something like that (more like "why? Don't you want them?) while she was doing my nails. I had not long miscarried the only pregnancy I ever managed at the age of 39. Problems caused by fibroids in my case coupled with 'Childless by Circumstance'.

I belong to Gateway Women which has been mentioned by a couple of posters. The members seem to prefer 'childless by circumstance' as it covers a variety of situations.

When I worked for a local authority I often used to work over the xmas period and have new year off but that was because I didn't really do anything at xmas and because it tended to be very quiet so a good opportunity to catch up on work! I used to volunteer though it wasn't taken as a given that I would work at xmas.

'I have the feeling that if I were born a boy it would have seemed completely normal'

Absolutely right. When I'm really struggling, and feeling unable to make a fuss over people's baby news or whatever, I remind myself that men are allowed to react to a colleague's/friend's pregnancy news with a 'great' or 'lovely' or whatever, and then not expected to ever mention it again. It's simply not fair that women are held to a different standard.

Personally, I enjoy spending time with little children (when I'm up for it, and for fairly short periods) but I COMPLETELY 100% understand why someone would say that they cant stand kids or babies or have zero interest in them. I have little tolerance for noisy badly behaved children out in public and certainly have no desire to share my home with a child! We're all different. No good reason why you should go mushy over kids just because you're a woman

"Those without children aren't being forced to work Christmas by Management they are choosing to do it.

On the flip side though there are lots of women without children who do request it off too which is fine, they deserve Christmas at home just as much as anyone else and of course it's not selfish"

But do they get granted the leave Queen?

Im a childfree by choice social housing tenant whose last holiday was a long weekend in Jaywick back in 1993

Just throwing this in here.

This thread makes for pretty painful reading. I totally screwed up last time I saw a good friend who I didn't know was having fertility issues but should have guessed / not been an idiot. She was talking about the last fabulous holiday she had been on with her dh and I said how jealous I was more than once. Turns out it was the holiday they went on when they decided to stop trying for a baby. And then I blathered on about the rubbish time I was having with ds. Could have cut my tongue out when a mutual friend told me what was going on. I bet she would have quite happily taken my struggles with ds and post natal depression .

I'm going to see her again in a few weeks but know that there's nothing I can say to make it better.