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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To start a thread about things you should not say or do to childless people

830 replies

user1485342611 · 24/10/2017 11:12

As someone who can't have children I have sometimes been shocked at how tactless and insensitive some people can be - the latest being a colleague who objects to having to work over Christmas because 'Christmas is about children. Staff with families should get priority'.

I do have a family, it just doesn't include children of my own.

AIBU to be fed up of this kind of stuff and to ask other posters in similar situations to share hurtful acts and words in the hope that it might educate those not in our situation and who don't always think before they speak/act?

OP posts:
Ifearthecold · 27/10/2017 18:47

I would never knowing say to a childless person that my DC were my greatest accomplishment but the reality is that they are and that if asked by someone that is the most honest answer. The infertility treatment was grim, we thought one had died at birth and since then I poured more time, love and sheer hard work into them than any other part of my life. This may make some posters laugh at me but It is true. I found my infertility experience very hard and was very lucky that with treatment it could be overcome. I do uunderstand the difference between negative comments about DC and infertility in as much as one come from a place of choice the other does not.

ElephantAndBird · 27/10/2017 18:51

Lemon - I suppose I do think that, although I don’t necessarily think people without children are missing out, if it’s not something they want, and I definitely don’t think that people without children are “other”.* But I’m conscious that I don’t want to derail the thread so I’m going to leave it at that. Best of luck to everyone on their ttc journeys.* Smile

ElephantAndBird · 27/10/2017 18:52

And another bold fail. Sorry! AngryBlush

OnionShite · 27/10/2017 20:03

What would be an appropriate way to respond to someone telling you they're having IVF? I had thought something like 'how exciting' and being pleased for them would be appropriate, but it seems not. A simple good luck?

PurpleDaisies · 27/10/2017 20:05

onion I’d go with “I hope it works out for you”. “How exciting” isn’t appropriate because the chances of it working aren’t very high and it’s pretty traumatic to go through.

BlueButTrue · 27/10/2017 20:08

Onion I would say “I really do wish you all the best with everything”

VladmirsPoutine · 27/10/2017 20:09

Ime the friends I have without dc (of the women) are the most successful and accomplished. They can happily take off to Rome for a weekend or do whatever else. That's not to say that this isn't the same of women that have children but it's just an interesting observation. There are stark differences in their lives. One friend recently had to resign because the needs of her child outweighed her ability to be consistent at work.

All that said, each to their own and I hope we reach a scenario in which everyone just lets everyone else live without making judgements on their child-bearing capabilities.

OnionShite · 27/10/2017 20:24

Cheers.

centreyoursoul · 27/10/2017 21:03

Sorry I haven’t had time to read the pages that have appeared in the last 24 hours but can I just make a couple of points?

In contrast to Emoting Winslett good old Emily Watson (the Appletree Yard actor) was asked in one of those quick interview Q&A’s at the front of the Guardian, I think it was, what was her greatest achievement and she said a film or a play (sorry Emily can’t remember what it was).
I remember wanting to kiss her. Thank God!!!!
A performer who doesn’t feel the need to list ‘having children’ as their greatest achievement in case they offend their children. Brave Emily, Thank You!

What about Barbara Hepworth, one of our greatest sculptors? She had triplets. Do you think in an interview if asked what her greatest achievement was, she would say ‘my children’? I fucking hope not.
Otherwise it negates women as professionals, as creatives, it reduces everything to biology.

VladmirsPoutine · 27/10/2017 21:22

centreyoursoul
Otherwise it negates women as professionals, as creatives, it reduces everything to biology.

But for some women being a 'mother' is everything. Why should that be negated or reduced to biology? I had a friend at uni that was doing an English language course prior to starting her degree and her ultimate goal was to pass the New York Bar exam - 15 years later she did exactly that and she'd consider that her greatest achievement. I also know women that exist solely to be mothers. Why does it have to be either/or?

Ifearthecold · 27/10/2017 21:29

I don't think any mother has to list raising her dc as an achievement but I think it is okay to do so as well, same with fathers.

Maybe great artists aren't going to do this, as I am not ever going to be one I don't know. Personally I'm inclined to think raising triplets is a serious achievement!

People should be free to identify what their own achievements are.

bananafish81 · 28/10/2017 00:50

* Ime the friends I have without dc (of the women) are the most successful and accomplished. They can happily take off to Rome for a weekend or do whatever else. That's not to say that this isn't the same of women that have children but it's just an interesting observation.*

Just to add a counterpoint as an alternative POV, they may be successful and accomplished but are they necessarily happy?

I'm very successful in my career

We could take off to Rome for a weekend or do whatever else hypothetically

But I'm not happy

Work is the focus of my because I don't have the option of having a much wanted family, because my reproductive organs don't work. I am very successful and at a senior level where many women aren't, but I'm desperately unhappy because the thing we want more then anything is the thing we can't achieve ie having a child. Work is the centre of my identity because infertility has robbed me of my sense of self worth - I might feel like a failure as a woman but at least I can feel a success at work. At work I can put effort in and get results out - but with infertility we have never tried so very hard at anything to get completely nowhere.

You'd never know this to look at me at work. Colleagues say how energetic and positive I am; I get involved in leadership schemes for mentoring younger women in my industry. But I don't feel accomplished. I feel like a failure because I feel like I can't do what I'm supposed to be able to do.

We might be able to go away at the weekend, but actually we lead quite a lonely life, because our friends all have kids now and their weekends are chock full of playdates and birthday parties, and we don't really have a role in their lives any more.

Many successful career women may be happily child free by choice, or involuntarily childless and have come to terms with it, and leading very happy and fulfilled lives.

Some - many - may be like me: where I might look outwardly successful and accomplished, but really I'm dying inside, and want nothing more than to give it up in a heartbeat if it meant we could become parents.

bananafish81 · 28/10/2017 00:50

^^ gah, bold fail!!

Replying to

Ime the friends I have without dc (of the women) are the most successful and accomplished. They can happily take off to Rome for a weekend or do whatever else. That's not to say that this isn't the same of women that have children but it's just an interesting observation.

EarlGreyT · 28/10/2017 09:54

Beyond mystified you're on mumsnet if don't have children tho - don't really get that.
Hopefully bananafish has cleared up this staggering mystery for you, but there are many threads/boards on here which have nothing to do with having children. I joined MN to engage in discussion with largely intelligent people about the topics that interest me. Obviously there are exceptions to this as comments like the above demonstrate.

I wouldn't go onto a thread about raising children and start advising people as my advice would be inappropriate and non credible when I don't have children. For some reason though people seem to think it's entirely acceptable to come and piss all over threads about being childless when it's not something they've ever experienced themselves. For the avoidance of doubt for those who are hard of thinking, of course everyone with children has had life before children, but this is not the same as being childless.

EarlGreyT · 28/10/2017 10:33

Slightly more on topic of what not to say to people who are childless. You only have to read this thread really, but:

I don’t expect childless people to be sensitive around me when they’re talking about their fabulous travels, the freedom they have, or the opportunities being childless can bring.

Oh right, so you regret having children and would give it all up to have fabulous travels, freedom and the opportunities of being childless would you? Thought not.

"At least you get to have great holidays/go out for nice meals/lie ins". Are you saying you'd like to give up your children for those things? Or even that you think those things would compensate for not having children? Thought not. Do you not think we'd rather give up all those things in a heartbeat to have children?

"You're having IVF how exciting/you might have twins"
Statistically IVF is more likely to fail than it is to succeed so there's nothing exciting about it when the likely outcome is disappointment. It's not exciting, it's expensive, stressful and painful (emotionally and physically).

"When are you going to have children?"
It's not when, it's if and it's if the fucking ivf ever works

"It'll all be worth it in the end/when you have your baby"
A) it may never work and b) The struggle and £10s of thousands won't be worth it if it doesn't work and even if it does, we'd rather not have had to go through all the shit we've had to go through to get there and glib comments like "worth it", completely underestimate what we've been through.

"Have you thought about adopting?" Or "what will you do if it doesn't work?"

I don't bloody know. This is hard enough to think about and is one of the greatest fears of anyone involuntarily childless. It is even harder to talk about and I find it hard enough to talk about anyway, but glibly asking me about one of my biggest fears in all of this, is going to upset me and indicates that the person asking doesn't have a clue what we're going through.

"You could always just adopt".
What like you did? Thought not. There's nothing "just" about adopting either for potential adoptive parents or the child and using the word just totally ignores the significance and difficulty of adopting. Adoption has it's own issues.

"Will you have another round of ivf?"
We only found out this one failed a couple of hours ago. I need some time to pick myself up off the floor first. It's not just a case of cracking on with the next one-either financially, emotionally or physically.

"Have you tried......"
what ever this is, it's likely to either be something we've already tried, is not appropriate for us or some unproven woo. We've been to one of the best hospitals in the country for IVF and spent close to £50k so chances are we've already tried it or it's not appropriate. You also think that in the 4 years we've been trying, we haven't spent any time googling things and haven't thought of the thing that you've come up with off the top of your head.

And finally the trump comment, the fabled unicorn couple:
" I know of one couple, she had hardly any eggs, he had no sperm and only half a bollock, they were trying for 10 years, had 10/50/300 rounds of IVF, were told she'd never get pregnant, they gave up trying/went on the adoption list, then they went on holiday, just relaxed, got drunk and she just got pregnant naturally (with triplets)"
Ok I exaggerate slightly, but a variation on this theme. How is that going to help or make me feel any better? And while that's a nice (but mythical story), how is this in anyway relevant to me or our situation?

And there we have it, infertility bingo.

Intercom · 28/10/2017 11:05

Excellently put EarlGreyT.

LenaLoveWitch · 28/10/2017 12:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LenaLoveWitch · 28/10/2017 12:25

So sorry meant to be a new post - tots unrelated ❤️

Sunrosepink · 28/10/2017 12:52

How old are you @EarlGreyT?

BlueButTrue · 28/10/2017 18:14

EarlGrey Some people do regret their children/feel like they’re in an emotional mind field each day. It just isn’t socially acceptable to say so.

EarlGreyT · 28/10/2017 19:00

@Sunrosepink
Why is my age relevant? Curious as to why you want to know.

EarlGreyT · 28/10/2017 19:01

@BlueButTrue
That may be the case and I do totally agree with you that it’s not a socially acceptable thing to say, but that’s an entirely different topic from this thread

Sunrisesand · 28/10/2017 20:04

I was curious to know your age aswell @EarlGreyT.
It seems you have been trying for along time. Do you think it is age related?

zippybear · 28/10/2017 20:45

I'm sure earlgreyt knows all about her own specific fertility problems. I don't think your amazing insight is very helpful or kind sunrisesand. And, quite obviously whether or not it's age related now it certainly wasn't a long time ago when she started trying was it ffs

McTufty · 28/10/2017 21:02

Cannot see how @earlgreyT’s age can possibly be relevant unless someone want to try to link her age to her fertility, which would be an utter dick move.

If she is 25 now and started trying when she was 20, her pain as described in her post is identical to if she is 45 and started trying at 40.

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