To start a thread about things you should not say or do to childless people

[user1485342611]

As someone who can't have children I have sometimes been shocked at how tactless and insensitive some people can be - the latest being a colleague who objects to having to work over Christmas because 'Christmas is about children. Staff with families should get priority'.

I do have a family, it just doesn't include children of my own.

AIBU to be fed up of this kind of stuff and to ask other posters in similar situations to share hurtful acts and words in the hope that it might educate those not in our situation and who don't always think before they speak/act?

bananafish81

I would just like to say I think you are amazing. I really hope your prediction is wrong as I cannot believe we live in a world where someone will read that post and then make any nasty remark to you about it.

SloeGinRocks I can assure you, women suffering with infitility are not climbing over each other to tell people on here how annoying children are. Offering advice on stuff is not the same as making twattish comments about children.

Great posts, chesty (I am in a similar position to you - though the idea of taking my 4-year-old niece on holiday makes me quail rather!)

I always quietly laugh at people who say "my children are my greatest achievement".

Brush off the comments of stupid people. It isn't easy, but they are very welcome to live in their cloud of ignorance.

This thread has left my mouth hanging open. Why would anyone come into a thread about what not to say to childless people - and proceed to make comments about "mumsnet is for mums" and Christmas is for those with children? I just don't get it.

If you don't know what you are talking about, this thread is for listening. It's a hugely sore and delicate topic and I am so grateful to people who have shared their feelings. I know I must have said hugely crass things to friends who were struggling in the past (that damn need to say something positive - I'm definitely guilty of having said "just relax" and "my friend's friend..." at one point), and I have learned a lot from people since discovering this website. I'm so sorry anyone has to go through infertility. Life can be so unfair and shit for absolutely no reason at all.

And now at 35 yes, I think I do have some idea of what it's like having children. I've been at births, I've cared for my friends and families children, I've taken my 4 year old niece on holiday in my sole care for a week, more importantly I've listened, to my sil, sister, countless friends, and here on mumsnet and other forums. I know about the guilt, the love, the tiredness, I haven't felt any of it personally, but I empathise with it

My point was that saying things like this is supposed to be acceptable but the opposite is not?

I could counter that I have some idea of what it’s like to be infertile then, as I have sat with my friend whilst she went through her 4th miscarriage, been there for her when she got her results, gone to countless appointments with her, listened to her when she needed a shoulder, lived through it with her for 10 years.

I would Never claim to have some idea of what it’s like. You know about it, yes, but you haven’t felt it.

Galadriel really, please. Surely you can see how hurtful it must be to someone struggling with infertility for someone to say that kind of shite to them? It’s just not going to be the same at all for “you don’t know what it’s like” to be said to someone with kids.

Galadriel, I do hope your kids have someone else from whom they can learn empathy.

Why are you trying to make it a competition? This isn't about whether your feelings have been hurt. It's about how you can help or just not make things worse for people who are going through one of the most devastating things that life can throw at them. For no reason other than pure bad luck.

galadriel are you being deliberately obtuse? The comments people objected to upthread were those saying all women with children knew what it was like to be childless because they used to be befire they had kids. Obviously if you’ve supported a friend through infertility that gives you an insight into what it’s like —not that you’d know it from your comments—.

Apparently strike through doesn’t work on the new iPhone update.

Galadrielsring

Can't you see how it is a completely different situation. People who struggle with infertility are going through something incredibly upsetting and unfair and it's hard to imagine being in that situation if you haven't struggled with it. Often they are having to re-evaluate their expectations about their whole life.

People with children are getting on with life (which they have planned) for the most part happily. They are doing something socially expected so don't have to deal with annoying questions.

Obviously it's harder to be in the first group and therefore a bit of empathy, or at the very least sympathy wouldn't go amiss. Rather than moaning about how your planned children were not as expected.

@Galadrielsring there's a difference between sympathy and empathy

I cannot know what it's like to have children because I've never experienced it, and likely never will

Others can't know what it's like to be involuntarily childless because they haven't experienced it

Empathy means the ability to experience the feelings of another person. It's subtly different from sympathy, which is caring and understanding for the suffering of others.

Neither side can know what it's like for the other, by definition

But sympathy for those who are suffering wouldn't go amiss, rather than chastising them

Just now I was talking to one of my junior colleagues. In my line of work I have quite a lot to do with children and young parents. We're recruiting a new colleague at the moment and we were talking about the qualities this person should have. My colleague said, "Well, I hope they'll have done something with their life and have ACTUAL experience of having children. There are things you learn in real life that you can't learn from books."

chesty put into words something which I agree with very strongly.
I think the nastiest personal attack I ever had on here was the comment that I deserved to grow old and lonely because I didn't have children prior to ending my marriage.

You’re right, I apologise.

I guess my feelings on this subject are a bit raw at the moment as (rightly or wrongly) I feel my friend took out her anger at infertility on me. I admit I keep expecting her to ‘come around’ to ithe idea and we can mend our friendship but judging by things said it looks unlikely to happen. I feel sad for her as she will end up alone if she keeps pushing everyone away who has what she wants (I’m not the only one she won’t see, her own sister has been ostracised too)

I do have empathy but what I was trying to say was it’s very hard to put yourself in the position of the other side completely, no amount of empathy or sympathy can change that and saying otherwise is silly.

The twats are out in force again - like they are on all threads like this.

Reading this thread with open mouthed horror. Some of you are going straight to hell.

And galadriel you really need to stop. Think about what you're saying! You're angry because your friend (who you allegedly care about) took out her emotions about what is going to be one of the defining events of her life on you? And now you would like her to respond in the way that YOU think is appropriate? Allow her some agency in her own life to deal with her own emotions in the way & timescale she wants. And maybe, just maybe, remember that it's easy to be the bigger person when you're the lucky one - and put that into practice.

Galadrielsring I'm sorry you've lost a good friendship in this very upsetting way. She must be suffering very much to do cut herself off from friends and even family members. There won't be a childless person who hasn't felt that pain when they see friends with children. It isn't a spiteful thing, it's possible to feel genuine happiness at your friend's situation but for it also to somehow amplify your own despair.

It does happen the other way as well. I drifted apart from someone who had been my closest friend. At the time I was under a lot of pressure at work and and I was barely coping with my DH having been diagnosed with a very serious, chronic illness on top of my DM also being chronically ill and almost dying. I called my friend to apologise for not having been in contact much and her reply was 'Really don't worry, it's not you. I haven't been in touch either. To be honest now we have children we only really socialise with other parents' . Thank god not everyone feels that way or I'd barely have a friend in the world,

the raw feeling of being ovoluntary childless can be like a knife through the chest.it can make reactions irrational.it can make anything seem about ur loss and it can make you retriet or lash out.its a grief sometimes every second of every day.sometimes its not there so much .but when its hits every day can seem like you grieving someone you love.becasue they would have been.your grieving over and over like your actually losing a child.
just seeing a child.hearing the world child can kick it off.
and sometimes ur stronger.
sometimes your weaker.
it might not seem or even be right at times.but its still how it feels for some.
we just need to be kind.
accepting that everyone feels differently
reacts differently
we can all though be kind.

"I keep expecting her to ‘come around’ to the idea"

This is like saying "I keep expecting my friend to come around to the idea that her mother is dead, but she just keeps crying. She's going to push everyone away if she doesn't buck up her ideas and start smiling again".

Infertility is not something you "come around" to. It's something you learn to live with, that you grow with. It's a loss, a grief. If you are as obtuse towards your friend in real life as you are appearing on here, it's no wonder she doesn't want to be around you at the moment.

stealth Galadriel has apologised.

Gadladrielsring I also meant to say, please don't forget, just because she ended your friendship doesn't mean she doesn't feel it's loss. You've lost a friendship. She has lost a friendship, her sister, probably other friendships. She's also lost her hopes and dreams of a family. She's lost the future she hoped for. Probably always assumed she'd have. It's utterly devastating. Even now, in my fifties there's a part of my brain that won't quite accept it. It feels like such a big thing and at the same time such a small thing to have a child. By small thing I mean it's so commonplace, so normal, something everyone in the world seems to have except you. And so it's hard to accept, even years after that has ceased to be even a remote possibility, that it will never, ever happen. Never.. I'm sitting here typing with tears streaming down my face thinking about my children. The people who should have existed but don't. It breaks my heart. Every. Single. Day.

If your friend does find she needs you I hope you'll welcome her with open arms.

its loss. Lost control of my apostrophes along with my emotions!

Kimboho

We've all had things in our childhood that we would rather have happened differently. It doesn't entitle us to be rude, self absorbed, nasty and totally lacking in empathy for anyone else's circumstances.

I’m sorry but I don’t agree about Christmas 🎄It’s not fair on the children to not be there. If I didn’t have children I wouldn’t be that bothered about the actual day as you can celebrate around the Christmas holidays. It sounds very selfish to me to say that as a grown adult.

However with regard to inappropriate comments to people who don’t have children. To ask when you’re having a child or another child, to make assumptions about why people don’t have children those comments are hurtful or people who moan about having children to those who don’t is offensive. It is hard work having children, but to do that is very thoughtless.