To start a thread about things you should not say or do to childless people

[user1485342611]

As someone who can't have children I have sometimes been shocked at how tactless and insensitive some people can be - the latest being a colleague who objects to having to work over Christmas because 'Christmas is about children. Staff with families should get priority'.

I do have a family, it just doesn't include children of my own.

AIBU to be fed up of this kind of stuff and to ask other posters in similar situations to share hurtful acts and words in the hope that it might educate those not in our situation and who don't always think before they speak/act?

Awwlookatmybabyspider

Yeah listening to friends getting upset because they find out they are having the gender they 'didn't want' it just makes me want to scream!

It's sad that it has taken you having a Child to realise a Child may want a parent about at Xmas, though a heck of a lot of adults want to see reactions of child on the day. Wonder what else is going to come as a surprise in childraising.

@Catswhiskers
You don’t have to apologise!. I was agreeing with you

Well, I've made it to page 20 and can't believe how many people are still going on about feckin' Christmas! THE OP DID NOT START A THREAD ABOUT CHRISTMASS!!! So, on the subject of things we unhappily childless would rather not have said to us I can offer my well-meaning DMIL, when I was very upset and tearful about said childlessness 'it wasn't meant to be' Er, really? Thanks, now I feel better.

Also, please stop with 'As a mother I feel X,Y and Z that you couldn't possibly feel'. Because only a mother has empathy, understands true love etc. OK, maybe without a child of my own I can't know how much it's possible to love but I don't need you to remind me of that.

I think in amongst all the arguing about Christmas the OP mentioned stupid things celebrities say. Did anyone see Kate Winslett on Graham Norton a few weeks ago? She told a story about meeting the Queen. Apparently Queenie congratulated KW on all her achievements and then said 'you're a mother aren't you?' KW says yes, the queen leans in and says 'It's the only job.' By now KW has visibly welled-up, the audience burst into applause and that knife in my heart twists a little more.
That's what we need. High-profile women reinforcing the idea that to be childless is to be worthless.
F-off Kate Winslett. And anyway, if it's the only job who collected my recycling this morning..?

Anyway

Why would you be on mumsnet if you don't have kids??

Off the top of my head I can think of boards about TV, employment, starting your own business, legal matters, money, investments, being frugal, video games, books, weddings, ethical dilemmas, news, refugee crisis, feminism, weddings, health, diet, relationships, style, travel, living abroad, support for bereavement, partners of armed forces personnel and various chat boards, including AIBU.

Then there are others about trying to conceive, for those who want children but haven't got them yet.

Are you seriously so dim you can't see anything that might interest people without children in all that?

If you are, then please, for the love of God, do not home educate your children, but I suspect you actually do realize what a ridiculous post you just farted out, and just misjudged how stupid that sarky little quip was.

Same for the person who posted it earlier, and the pathetic cheerleader who piped up that it was a "good point".

Browneyes, 😉 Thank you.

Loads of folk don't have children for different reasons. When I see the burgeoning population in the UK, hear the constant moaning about cost of childcare and the need for adults to have time to satisfy their own interests I admire those who have chosen to be childless. There should be more like them. I would never comment to anyone about being childless, it's personal and no-one else's business.

I remember how hurtful, patronising or thoughtless some comments could be.

"Have you thought about adoption?"
Yes, long before everyone kept suggesting it all the time. Do you ask fertile couples the same question?

"What about all the unwanted children in the world?"
You mean those you never think about except when you preach at others to adopt them?

"The world is already overpopulated".
Clearly that isn't due to infertility!

"Everything happens for a reason".
No it doesn't.

"Give it time"
Is X years not enough then?

"Genetics don't matter"
And yet you chose to have X children who inherited your genes.

"Enjoy the freedom! Go to the cinema/on holiday/to skydiving lessons while you can!"
We've already spent X years doing those things and of course they are no substitute at all.

"Get a cat/dog".
Seriously? Would you like to have your children replaced with a cat/dog? (do not say yes as a "joke" )

"Just relax"
Yes, because that always cures blocked Fallopian tubes, low sperm count, PCOS, endometriosis, and every physical ailment in the world...

"I heard of someone who eventually had triplets after they went on holiday/adopted/gave up trying"
But for every one of these anecdotes there are far more occasions where that doesn't happen.

"I know how you feel. We've been trying for 2 months now".
That's a very short time, and while there are unfortunately no guarantees, as far as you know you have no fertility problems. No, you don't know what it's like after X years.

"You can have mine! Ha ha! Nothing but trouble"
But you wouldn't change a thing.

"You don't mind covering over Christmas do you?"
Actually yes, it twists the knife on top of the heartbreak of infertility.

"I know you will want to receive daily updates/photos of my children" / "I'm sure you won't be wanting to hear about my family"
Why not ask, and then respect the answer?

Also, on forums like this one when you offer any kind of view or opinion on anything child related e.g. children screaming in restaurants, and some poster sneers 'do you actually have children'?

Erm to be fair this fury is Mumsnet OP^^

Runs away before getting flamed

"Forum"

SloeGinRocks

So you thought it best to just drop your little piece of twattish nonesence then run off. Thanks for that! - people without children are actually allowed an opinion you know

Women without children are really seen as bottom of the barrel both on here and in real life aren't they? This is very clear from this thread.

To all the posters asking why we are on here if we aren't parents, why don't you ask mumsnet to ban the ttc and infitility threads. That way there will be less to encourage us to join Mumsnet and we can all just huddle under our barren bridge, limiting the time you need to be disgusted by our presence.

I guess the thing is that we all need to be kind to ourselves and each other. Everyone has their own shit stuff; and quite often we'll just never know what that might be for someone else. Something quite innocuous to you might be devastating to me.
What's sad about this thread is that it started off looking for a discusion of what not to say and quickly descended into a row over 'who should have priority over christmas'. And it's that kind of bollocks that divides people which just ends up in aggression and accusations. If Christmas is important to you, that's fine. Why the bloody angst about who gets what? I personally couldn't really care less about being at home for Christmas (& I used to work Christmas regularly); neither do my grown up family. But now my children do care very much and that's why it's a challenge.
Does that make parents more deserving? Nope. But does it mean it'd be kind in supporting a parent in the workplace with time off to spend with children? Yep.
Actually we should all be trying to support each other. Empower, embrace, value, support. If we all did that the world would be damn sight better

bananafish - excellent post. Thank you.

tempstamos

No more condescending than the people who have never had children but seem to think they know exactly how they would feel and act if they did.

EXHIBIT A: THE INTELLECTUAL INADEQUATE.

A major problem in this area (re: the original post of what not to say) is the last resort of the parent which is "well you don't know because you don't have children". (as previously mentioned above by me and others eg: Andrea Leadsom)

This is obviously a stupid argument for many reasons not least because if fails to account for empathy, basic intelligence and human reasoning.

It is the last resort of the true idiot and in an argument/debate to me it is on a level with slapping someone across the face. Of no value, insulting and a violation of their human autonomy.

Domestic violence for some men (and women) is often the last resort in an argument. [Not always, not for everyone but sometimes only sometimes] in the sense that the person has run out of responses and will just lash out. In this kind of scenario, the "you don't know because you don't have children" is of the same status - just verbal violence without any substance.

Saying to a woman in any kind of debate about literally anything "what do you know/understand because you don't have children" marks the speaker out as a person of very low intellectual calibre. A gratuitiously offensive fool who can only clutch on to the fact of their basic human biology to bolster their argument.

Well done you pathetic person. Well done.

Oh. And for the record, the kindest thing people ever said to me when I was desperately unhappy about not having children was...
"I'm sorry. That sounds hard. Do you want to talk about it? Don't have to, but I'm always here..."
Ideally whilst putting on the kettle.

Actually @centreyoursoul my question wasn’t answered.

There are undoubtedly many things you won’t understand until you actually have a child, hence a lot of posts starting ‘before I had dc I used to volunteer to work Christmas/I gave up my job so I wouldn’t have to work christmas’

There’s been posts about wants and needs.
wanting a child is selfish (as in wanting it for yourself)
having a child, your needs go out of the window, it’s all about what the child wants and needs, and do you really ‘get’ that until you actually have a baby? Because I know I didn’t.

I lost my best friend because I had a baby and she was infertile. She said she couldn’t cope with being around me when I had something she wanted but couldn’t have. It wasn’t my fault she was unable to have children, yet I was made to feel guilty for being pregnant. Was I supposed to be childless because she was?

.

@AcademicOwl happy for you that you got your children. Did it happen naturally? If you don't mind me asking. You don't have to answer.

Galadriel I doubt your friend was trying to make you feel guilty. It can be impossible to keep putting on the brave face. She was being honest with you, instead of politely smiling when she was actually devastated. It was about her own situation and feelings, not an attack on you.

It comes as no surprise that, once again, certain self centred individuals with children have turned up in force to wave the child card. No empathy whatsoever. All people deserve consideration.

However, if you want to know something that's interesting and in fact, after years of dealing with insensitivity, I am starting to take comfort in. Absolutely no one will get through life unscathed. It has been very refreshing in my 40's to see others learning some humility through life experience. It has made them into much kinder, more empathetic people. Not that I am wishing ill on others but I am certainly liking some people more, now that they understand that life is not always how you wish or indeed, not always in your control.

'KW says yes, the queen leans in and says 'It's the only job.' By now KW has visibly welled-up, the audience burst into applause'

Oh FFS. I usually love Kate Winslet but this has pissed me off. Very insensitive and smug of her. I recorded this program and was going to watch it but glad I gave it a miss now!

Stickthat I was just pointing out that MN is a site primarily aimed at Mum's.

Therefore if you merely pop on here only to write twattish stuff about how annoying kids are you may well run the risk of offending some of them

People who have conceived before can get offended too y'know.

@Galadrielsring

To answer your previous question,

Of course it's ok, and true, to say there are things you don't understand about having children til you have them. We, none of us can truly 'get' each other's circumstances unless we've lived them. For example some parents will never understand what it's like to have a child that isn't healthy and needs 24/7 care.

However. People say this to childless women all the time. And now at 35 yes, I think I do have some idea of what it's like having children. I've been at births, I've cared for my friends and families children, I've taken my 4 year old niece on holiday in my sole care for a week, more importantly I've listened, to my sil, sister, countless friends, and here on mumsnet and other forums. I know about the guilt, the love, the tiredness, I haven't felt any of it personally, but I empathise with it.

So when I read or hear young mothers saying 'god you just have no idea what it's like having a child before you have one, I thought I was going to spend my maternity leave reading books!' what they mean is, they had no idea. I knew they weren't going to be reading books, I knew they were going to be covered in sick having not slept properly for days watching their marriage fall apart (for some!) wondering wtf happened to the old version of them that just used to swan out of the house with two minutes notice.

I also think there's a different perspective gained from growing older without a husband, wife or child. No I don't know what it's like to be a parent, but parents don't know what it's like to be me, or a spinster (I say that light heartedly as it's by choice!) Some of the most fruitful friendships of my life have been with women who have children where we have tried to understand and support the hard parts of each other's lives and celebrate the good.

Your example of

having a child, your needs go out of the window, it’s all about what the child wants and needs, and do you really ‘get’ that until you actually have a baby? Because I know I didn’t.

Yeah I know that. I've seen my best friend pacing a hospital corridor not hsving showered or eaten for days. I've watched my friend put up with an abusive partner because the kids will go without if she leaves. I've seen a woman professionally I know not eat so she can afford Christmas presents. It's possible, to gain these understandings of the world, by existing in it, and being open, and listening.

Cue a raft of people to tell me ah yes but you don't really really know. No, of course I don't. But this thread is about things not to say to people without children and 'you have no idea of x,y and z' is a good start.

* I lost my best friend because I had a baby and she was infertile. She said she couldn’t cope with being around me when I had something she wanted but couldn’t have. It wasn’t my fault she was unable to have children, yet I was made to feel guilty for being pregnant. Was I supposed to be childless because she was?*

I'm sorry you felt guilty, just to offer a view from the other side. I have been unable to see some of my friends with children while going through treatment, as it's just been too painful to be around happy families while we're going through failed cycles and miscarriages, having to accept we will not be able to have children

I don't expect anyone else to tiptoe around me - it's not their fault we can't have children. But what's made the world of difference is understanding and sympathy. Not empathy, but sympathy. My friends have been amazing and understanding and said they are here for me when I am ready. We chat a lot but I just can't cope with seeing them (this is also true of any social gatherings tbh, regardless of whether kids are going to be there. I can't face answering the questions about what we've been up to - when the answer is nothing except being professional infertiles). I send their kids presents for their birthdays. I just can't deal with attending their birthday parties

When my mum died my friends recognised I was in a deep grief and gave me time and space, infertility has also been a deep grief. I nursed my beloved dying mother and I can say hand on heart that the grief of infertility has been the hardest thing I've tried to deal with.

It's not my friends fault I can't have children. I don't want my friends to not have the joy of parenthood that I can't have. But I am enormously grateful for their understanding that it is very difficult for me. It's not their fault, but neither is it mine. One of the worst things about infertility isn't just the permanent aching sadness of being childless, irs the toxic nature of what it does to your relationships and your very sense of self.

e're coming to terms with saying out loud 'we can't have children' as we have reached the end of the road and know I will never be pregnant. As the wound is becoming less raw, I'm feeling more emotionally able to re engage with the world

I'm prepared for the onslaught of being told how selfish I am for my grief and deep depression manifesting itself in this way.
And I'm beyond grateful that my friends have been so understanding and supportive while I've been in the pit of despair.

^^bold fail of the above

Was replying to this comment

I lost my best friend because I had a baby and she was infertile. She said she couldn’t cope with being around me when I had something she wanted but couldn’t have. It wasn’t my fault she was unable to have children, yet I was made to feel guilty for being pregnant. Was I supposed to be childless because she was?

Yes I'm also sorry about your best friend.