To start a thread about things you should not say or do to childless people

[user1485342611]

As someone who can't have children I have sometimes been shocked at how tactless and insensitive some people can be - the latest being a colleague who objects to having to work over Christmas because 'Christmas is about children. Staff with families should get priority'.

I do have a family, it just doesn't include children of my own.

AIBU to be fed up of this kind of stuff and to ask other posters in similar situations to share hurtful acts and words in the hope that it might educate those not in our situation and who don't always think before they speak/act?

Jb291 Exactly! I myself have covered work load / done double shifts etc becuase they had an emergency with their dc. No problem at all. I have worked Christmas because a mother asked me if I could because she wanted to spend time with her dc. Again, no problem.

The reason I had no issue was because the people asking were genuinely grateful to me for doing so. I was not told becuase I don't have children I am in less need for time off. If it had become expected of me each year becuase I am childless, I would have said no, if that was a problem I would have left the company.

Not quite childless exactly but infertility related. When I told a few people the first time I was doing IVF some of the comments were pretty crass:

"Oh that's test tube babies innit?"
"Have you thought about adoption?" (Well yes, but right now this is where we are on our journey)

From a couple of parents who'd never experienced infertility "oh how exciting!" Well yes, but actually this isn't a magic cure, in fact I am more likely to have an unsuccessful cycle than a successful one and be pumped full of hormones, inject myself daily, have invasive scans and surgery. All for an outcome where the odds are stacked against me.

The best response I had was from a friend who'd had several IVF cycles. She just said, "If you want to talk about it I'm here. If you don't then that's fine and I won't put pressure on by asking you for updates. But just know that if I'm not contacting you doesn't mean I'm not thinking of you."

Is it difficult for people to know the right thing to say if they've never been through it, which is why infertility patients don't talk about it very much (except to others who understand).

Is it difficult for people to know the right thing to say if they've never been through it, which is why infertility patients don't talk about it very much (except to others who understand)

I understand this completely, tbh I only talk about my issues with friends who are in a similar position or on here.

Sitting here with my anti baby/child aunty, of whom is quite tight lipped and has been a corporate EA for the last 15 years.

Even she agrees with me that those with small children/young families should get Christmas holiday first.

Since, you know, there’s a small child involved and everything.

A husband or elderly doesn’t compare, in my opinion

Yes they do. It’s in all our contracts. As I said before, I’m a parent and have worked the past 4 Christmas days, but I have dH at home - wouldn’t be able to do so if I didn’t as no other childcare around, so I can empathise with those that are in the position I would be if I didn’t have dh, and do what I can to make it easier for them.

It’s not really a case of ‘asking’ people their plans - they mostly come to me and say ‘I’ve put xmas Day in as A/L - i want to travel home to spend it with mum/sit in my pjs and eat chocolates/exhausted all options and have no one to have the dc’

If it’s a toss up between 2 people and there’s no discernible difference or no way of choosing who gets the a/l it’s a coin toss in their presence - that’s just the way we work. As I said it’s all online, I get all the requests at the same time as everyone puts in their whole years leave when it opens.

Shall we set up 'barrenselfishbitcheswhoprobablyhatechildren.com' as a space we can talk or will that also be inundated with helpful messages about how we just need to relax and think about the mothers? Maybe if we were not so selfish we would understand things morr...

Before I had children, I didn’t mind working over Christmas but that’s because it was my choice and I don’t care about Christmas. I guess it was also because it didn’t go on for 30-40 years in the work place. I can’t believe some of the selfish responses from the parents on here. Ugh, people are so up their own arses.

EvilCleverDog, I am surprised you have not been sued. A coin toss is shit, who worked previous years would be better.

I feel very sorry for your employees that they feel they have to justify themselves as worthy. Then again if they constantly phone in sick for predictable dates or bring kids in you have far bigger problems with a bad workforce with zero respect for you. You are storing up much larger problems with your attitude. Luckily this is likely a product of your fevered imagination so ho hum.

@evilcleverdog

I agree with you that it isn’t discrimination to prioritise the same people for Christmas time off.

But I disagree with you it is indirect sex discrimination not to prioritise parents. It isn’t. And even if it did subject women to a particular disadvantage, it could be justified on the basis of not being a complete twat of an employer to those without children.

I’m an Employment/discrimination lawyer and this kind of stuff is my day job.

Sitting here with my anti baby/child aunty, of whom is quite tight lipped and has been a corporate EA for the last 15 years.

Even she agrees with me that those with small children/young families should get Christmas holiday first.

Oh, well that’s the end of it, because one person you know who doesn’t have children thinks people with young families should get preference it’s not worth discussing any more?

What about all the parents who think that everyone should have the same right to have time off at Christmas?

McTufty Is it not discrimination to refuse the same people the same time of year on year because they don't have children?

I have just read an article in the Guardian that says companies refusing holiday on the basis that the employee doesn't have children could face action for descrimination.

I've not rtft so no doubt this has been said but if someone says they don't want children, please believe them. Don't say 'oh but you might change your mind' with a coy little smile/head tilt.
I have no children and don't ever want any. I am quite happy with that.

I wonder what people would do if someone wanted Christmas off because it’s also Chanukah and they want it for religious reasons.

ephem If someone had believed me, they would have been believing a liar.

I use to say I didn’t want any so the pain of not having any upset me that little bit less in the face of other people

I am very close to my sister who cannot have children due to a disability that she acquired following a vaccine. It was not the vaccine but it triggered an infection (might have happened anyway) which caused the illness. A relative said “bet you wish you hadn’t had the flu jab now”! We don’t see that twat anymore.

@stickthatonyourpipe

I don’t see how it could be. For it to be discrimination, in the legal sense, it has to be because of a protected characteristic eg sex, race, disability. Parental status isn’t such a characteristic.

Possibly I’m missing something, could you link the article? Be interested to read.

I suppose you could argue it is indirectly discriminatory against gay people (although possibly not given gay couples can adopt) or age discrimination as older workers especially women less likely to have younger children.

But I see it more as a general fairness issue rather than a discrimination issue.

Pre DC I always worked Christmas day. Post DC I had to give up the job I loved to spend Christmas Day with my DC. I'm a single parent for bank holiday cover is a nightmare at best of times. When my boss rota'd me on Christmas Day I resigned there and then. I had no choice. Now I teach so I can have that day and others with them.

I don't know how to link but here is a copy of the URL:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/money/2005/jul/22/discriminationatwork.workandcareers

To be fair, it does state sex descrimination against men further down so maybe that is the case.

Oh it links it automatically - didn't realise!

AtSea1979 did you not ask anyone if they could cover it or did you just assume that all people without children are selfish wankers?

Sunnyskies I addressed that upthread.

Mctufty I didn’t say indirect sex discrimination not to prioritise parents, but to give a woman a shift (we have rotating shifts, no pre set hours) I know she won’t be able to do because of childcare issues would be. She would have a case for a tribunal. There is no childcare on Christmas Day, before/after 7am/6pm so I purposely don’t give those shifts to the single mums who I manage. It’s common sense.

@stickthatinyourpipe

Interesting article. What it is saying though is it would be sex discrimination to take a paternalistic view and assume women need priority. Prioritising women would be sex discrimination.

@evilcleverdog I can assure you that requiring an employee to attend work on a day that her employment contract states to be a working day would give her no grounds whatsoever for a tribunal claim. I do not know where you got that advice from but it is wrong.

Perhaps not all but plenty of single mums have childcare on Christmas Day by the way. Their parents or siblings or the child’s father often help out. You seem to think all single parents are the only people who can look after their child on Christmas Day.

Yeah it is an interesting one. I'm pretty sure unfair treatment however would be a case for tribunal though if an employee was determined enough?

Mctufty it’s in the flexible working policy.

Although none of my staff have official flexible working as they don’t have to - I accommodate most requests. The Rotas are done monthly, shifts are as and when, full time staff work 5/7 days with 2 days off (try and put the 2 days together) end of the month staff give me a list of appointments/school things/p/timers requests for long days or short days (as no shift swaps allowed) and I take a whole day (one of my days off) to put the rota together, send it to h/o and it’s put online. It’s extensive but as I said before it’s worked for 12 years and I haven’t had any complaints (yet)

Perhaps not all but plenty of single mums have childcare on Christmas Day by the way. Their parents or siblings or the child’s father often help out. You seem to think all single parents are the only people who can look after their child on Christmas Day

This

I would think that really the number of single parents who spend the day entirely alone with just their DC rather than family or friends is small. It may of course suit your staff to have you believe that is the case so they get the day off.