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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think there is a group on MN deliberately trying to downplay the institutional oppression of women?

999 replies

PerryPerryThePlatypus · 18/10/2017 08:13

I've been hanging around these here parts since Pom Bears were just a bizarre crisp but more and more I see posters chipping away at other posters experiences, feelings of unease etc. It's difficult to articulate but it's just a shift from NAMALT to women are just as bad so stop complaining. An almost subtle silencing.

OP posts:
BaronessEllaSaturday · 18/10/2017 23:18

baroness what a load of tripe of course men aren't incapable of judging these things I wasn't the one who said they were, someone else used it as an excuse for men

taratill · 18/10/2017 23:19

I know I just am saying I think it's a crap excuse.

KrytensNanobots · 18/10/2017 23:23

Me and some random bloke telling me I have a nice blouse/ smile/ I'm pretty/ or that I should smile or wear a nice blouse when I'm clearly minding my own business - not appropriate and gendered.

Why can't a man pay a compliment? Genuine question. Just because he says "I like your dress" for example doesn't mean that's code for "I wanna shag ya."
I'd say "thank you" and then carry on talking to whoever I was talking to

BaronessEllaSaturday · 18/10/2017 23:24

Of course it's a crap excuse they always are

Frequency · 18/10/2017 23:27

I think that action is better aimed at teaching our young boys how to pick up on social clues rather than not wanting to speak to any men in case they might be coming on to us

I don't want men to stop initiating conversation with women. I want them to engage their brains and sense of decency before they do.

For example, if I am sitting in a coffee shop reading a book and a man asks if he can sit at my table and I say yes, put my book down and turn towards him, I am open to being conversed with. If I say yes, angle my body away and continue reading my book then shut the fuck up, drink your coffee and leave me alone, you insufferable asshat.

Similarly if I am sitting on a train and you wedge yourself beside me despite there being plenty of empty seats. If I turn away/shuffle along to put distance between us, I don't want to talk about how nice the weather is, tell you where I am going and why, what I had for breakfast and how long ago my last shit was. I want you to leave me alone.

It really is quite simple. Men do not have to stop talking to women, they just have to listen to their brains before listening to their dicks.

taratill · 18/10/2017 23:29

totally agree frequency but I don't think that's what everyone has been saying on this thread.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 18/10/2017 23:29

Agree with frequency

BaronessEllaSaturday · 18/10/2017 23:31

Very well put frequency

taratill · 18/10/2017 23:36

Maybe it is because you can't fully understand a point of view on a thread like this.

I thought the point was that a man should never talk to a woman (regardless of social clues) because a man just 'has got to understand' that no woman would want to talk to him because 96% of sex offences are committed by men.

If people are saying that a man who is made aware by the woman by social clues that she doesn't want to talk to him (as described by Frequency) and persists then I completely get it. In the absence of the social clues I struggle with the position in the first paragraph as that is treating an entire class of people in the same way for no reason.

KrytensNanobots · 18/10/2017 23:38

What frequency said. With bells on. Which I've said before but has put soooo much more eloquently and precisely than me!

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 18/10/2017 23:38

Its what the vast majority of us have been saying all along

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 18/10/2017 23:39

Yay frequency

United the thread

Quick lets get mumsnet to close it

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 18/10/2017 23:39

Although its got nothing to do with the OP Grin

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 18/10/2017 23:41

Going to bed

Night

taratill · 18/10/2017 23:41

woo hoo! I'm still not convinced it's what everyone has been saying though.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 18/10/2017 23:42

Thats why i said the majority

It certainly isnt what everyone has been saying Grin

KrytensNanobots · 18/10/2017 23:43

I thought the point was that a man should never talk to a woman (regardless of social clues) because a man just 'has got to understand' that no woman would want to talk to him because 96% of sex offences are committed by men.

Yes, I completely agree with frequency that is the way it should be.
Answered the question before seeing who was behind agreeing.
Seeing as we're all apparently on the same page, how does that correlate with no man ever speak to a woman just in case?
Which is what's been implied.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 18/10/2017 23:43

tara

Face to face i think the vast majority of us would have agreed 20 pages ago and we would be watching the last remaining arguer like this Shock

taratill · 18/10/2017 23:47

krytens exactly my point. That is the view that I don't agree with.

taratill · 18/10/2017 23:48

rufus I think you are right.

Frequency · 18/10/2017 23:59

^Seeing as we're all apparently on the same page, how does that correlate with no man ever speak to a woman just in case?
Which is what's been implied^

I think women are starting to get sick of sexually aggressive men demanding our attention and are speaking out more loudly against it than we used to. The rhetoric of not all men/women must be polite/men are just trying to be nice/it's our responsibility to manage male behaviour is starting to get old. And it's not helping. Women are still being raped and sexually assaulted and catcalled when all we want to do is go about our daily business in peace.

Men really are shooting themselves and other men in the foot with this behaviour. I'd guess around 98% of women would turn away from a man in a coffee shop or on a train because experience tells us the conversation will to turn into a thinly veiled come-on and we worry it will get aggressive if we don't reciprocate.

If they'd never started this nonsense in the first place, we'd be much more open to being 'friends' with them.

But back to the OP, I don't necessarily think there is a larger proportion of apologists on MN than there used to be. I think MN is now a lot bigger, so there are more of them in the wider sense. They're not stuck in an echo chamber in a relatively small, most forward thinking female community any more so we notice them more.

I've also noticed a rise in women standing up to say no more, which will make the apologists shout louder and/or resort to more extreme/bizarre arguments.

taratill · 19/10/2017 00:07

frequency but what is an apologist? Is it someone like me who doesn't think that the method of treating all men the same because of the actions of some will solve anything. (Because I genuinely don't!)

I just don't think it is positive for reasons I have given several times.

I am all for positive action to remove gender divide but I don't think stating that all men should be treated the same way for the actions of the few does a single thing to promote that cause. I just don't.

Mittens1969 · 19/10/2017 00:07

Yes I think the majority would agree definitely. I really don’t get why Tara is so intent on defending random men at train stations.

taratill · 19/10/2017 00:13

and Frequency not all women feel like you do. To state 'women are feeling.....' is taking ownership of how all women feel.

No issue about speaking out against 'sexually aggressive men' but how exactly is treating all men as though they are 'sexually aggressive' achieving that aim?

How is speaking out against but not addressing root causes going to change anything rather than appearing bitter and antagonistic? Society as a whole (not women) alone is responsible for making changes.

Most men, have not started any nonsense. Some have they are to blame not all or most.

taratill · 19/10/2017 00:13

mittens are you deliberately being obtuse?