To think there is a group on MN deliberately trying to downplay the institutional oppression of women?

[PerryPerryThePlatypus]

I've been hanging around these here parts since Pom Bears were just a bizarre crisp but more and more I see posters chipping away at other posters experiences, feelings of unease etc. It's difficult to articulate but it's just a shift from NAMALT to women are just as bad so stop complaining. An almost subtle silencing.

Here you go pumper
geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Schrödinger%27s_Rapist

Why wouldn't you want to be approached by strange men unless you think they're going to attack you?

Thats exactly what I'm saying - I don't want to be approached by strange men in case they attack me. I'm not wary of the lovely men in my life because they kind and I know that. But if my husband is on the train, at night, in a quiet carriage, how does the woman sitting alone know that he's lovely? She doesn't, so it's better if he leaves her alone.

In the station example they are more likely to be going to ask you if you have a fag or know what time the train is than anything else

Which would surely come under...'you should only approach a woman if you would approach a man in the same circumstances'? If its for a fag, then presumably you would ask a man or a woman and its not a case of just pestering them BECAUSE they are a woman?

I don't get why some seem to be changing round the argument here. I don't think anyone thinks it would be reasonable to expect men to never ever under any circumstance speak to women they don't know. But what exactly is wrong with the 'if you would not say/do the same to another man' way of thinking? This takes into account those blokes who might well be approaching the random isolated woman 'just for a chat'.

beyond yes, exactly that!

Assassinated - I think it does happen in some cases but I wouldn't like to see it being the 'done thing'.

That doesn't mean I don't think the woman that got the job isn't up to it - just that the man may have actually been the better candidate but because they were trying to up the number of women in the office/meet a target then the woman had the edge. The same applies if there were mostly women in an office and they gave a job to a man because of numbers.

taratill I have never been approached by a stranger who isn't male when I've been keeping myself to myself

Yup. Only one time in my life have |I been approached by a female stranger. And this was at a hospital and it turned out the woman wanted to know if I had a ciggie she could have. This did turn into friendly conversation tbf.

On the other hand, the amount of random men who have approached me is ridiculous. Sometimes the reasons used are pathetically flimsy when its clear they just want to 'try their luck'. Which can be flattering, if they are wanting to chat me up. But I don't pretend that they are just simply trying to be friendly.. as they aren't at all.

DH reckons to have a random man approach him is an absolute oddity. Apparently random men do not feel the need to chat to random men on a regular basis.

pumper, "There's a word of a difference between thinking every man I come across is going to attack me and not wanting to be approached by strange men when I'm alone. "

bumbley yes, I don't think that every man I come across is going to attack me. I speak to men every day.

I do not want to be approached by strange men when I'm alone.

"Sometimes the reasons used are pathetically flimsy when its clear they just want to 'try their luck'. Which can be flattering, if they are wanting to chat me up. But I don't pretend that they are just simply trying to be friendly.. as they aren't at all. "

Ok, what's wrong with a man finding a woman attractive and trying to be friendly and start a conversation with her and potentially ask her out? (Late night train stations and comments about tits aside. )

IF there was a total switch in power tomorrow and we woke up and women suddenly attacked men on a regular basis, all stats said women were dangerous (as a class) to men, and that 'nice women' were well aware that there was a problem with women attacking men...would anyone here take it personally if men started asking that women would not approach men in isolated situations? Would they take this to mean men never ever wanted to speak to women, or that they hated all women, or blamed each individual woman for the fact that women (as a class) were dangerous? Would anyone here take it personally when men discussed this huge amount of violence committed by women? Would they go onto threads on forums discussing that 96% of sexual violence was committed by women, and cry 'not me. Its not a problem as I don't do that?' I don't think they would

Its hardly asking for the world to ask that men are actively aware of the issues that their sex pose to women as a whole.

Coming back to this again

Do you go onto dog charity home pages and say "Cats get abused too, look! Why don't you help cats? And some dogs bite people. Look at this baby who was hurt by a dog."

Nobody would do that because it would be deranged. Yet it is seen as acceptable to do this in response to people trying to discuss problems like sexism or racism.

In my business, I have more women in the traditionally male department and vice versa. This is because I ignore feminists and judge everyone on their worth.

Why you're all mavericky you! If we could only bottle that.

I can't believe there is an argument that men shouldn't approach women in situations where it clearly might cause them some alarm. I didn't even think that was a feminist issue - I thought it was people having some cop-on. Men had this kind of cop-on since before women starting marching for the vote - it was called being considerate of other people and how your presence might affect them.

As you've never been even slightly threatened or hassled Kyrton, you've benefited from many men who had the cop-on to stick to their own side of the waiting room at midnight and not invade your space.

Really horny? I would have a problem being labelled as violent if I wasn't. I wouldn't say it 'wasn't a problem' but then people aren't saying that 'violence by men isn't a problem' so I'm not sure what your point is.

Ok, what's wrong with a man finding a woman attractive and trying to be friendly and start a conversation with her and potentially ask her out? (Late night train stations and comments about tits aside.)

There is nothing wrong with a man finding a woman attractive and wanting to ask her out. There is a problem when men feel this desire to ask the woman out should be acted upon in inappropriate situations.

When men do attack women on a regular basis, how is any woman supposed to know if that guy coming over to chat her up is one of the good guys? Usually, men who approach women in the street are NOT the good guys. I feel confident in saying that at least half the time, if the woman does not fawn over the random guy, it turns sour and 'ignorant bitch' or something is suddenly the case.

As you've never been even slightly threatened or hassled Kyrton, you've benefited from many men who had the cop-on to stick to their own side of the waiting room at midnight and not invade your space.

I've had men talk to me whilst waiting for a bus, or when passing by in the street. "Mornin' love" Don't feel threatened though. As it's just been you know, talking.

Really horny? I would have a problem being labelled as violent if I wasn't. I wouldn't say it 'wasn't a problem' but then people aren't saying that 'violence by men isn't a problem' so I'm not sure what your point is.

But its not you personally being accused of being violent. If people were discussing how nearly all violence was from women, this does not mean they are including you as a violent person, but your sex as tending to be violent. And professing your 'innocence' on threads that are discussing how violent your sex is...well its kind of unnecessary as when discussing the violent ones, you are clearly not included...as YOU are not violent.

Not sure if this makes sense or if its come out garbled. Its quite hard to put into words how I feel about this tbh.

"I also think a job should always go to the best person - not just go to someone to make up the numbers."

The hidden assumption here is that by default, most men are usually the right person and the occasional woman is an anomaly as the right person. It's quite odd that this is used as a tool to argue against equal representation of women and in favour of wildly disproportionate representation of men.

Horny, but women seem to have different ideas about what an appropriate situation is.

Men should be able to read signals if the women reposnds (in an appropriate situation) then further the conversation and it might move on to meeting up again

But when we are going about our everyday business we might not want to chat and even if a man does find a women attractive she might not care if she isn't responding then she doesn't care so stop. Yet far far too many men seem to think that our confidence is based on them finding us attractive we are not all walking around waiting to be asked out or wanting a compliment that often just comes over as creepy

I never liked being approached by strange men, so I do know what you mean, Pumperthepumper. And I used to carry a rape alarm in the days when I travelled regularly on the tube on my own as a student. But I am aware that it’s down to my PTSD, and the anxiety that I have as a result.

I much prefer being able to drive by car.

Horny, but women seem to have different ideas about what an appropriate situation is.

Well yes, as women are different. Which is why the general 'rule' makes sense as...just don't randomly approach women to chat them up. Some women will like it, some do not.

I actually do not see why anyone would ever just approach a stranger in the street to chat them up. I would never do it. Maybe this is part of my problem with the kind of disconnect I have when talking about stuff like this..

I have chatted blokes up in pubs before though. And don't really have an issue when blokes do it to me as long as they don't 'turn' when I turn them down, which sadly seems to happen on a regular basis also.

So men should keep in mind what is an appropriate situation

Late night empty train no
Walking along a quiet dark road no
Delivery driver who has a quick check to see if a man is living there no

Some women might be ok with the above but many would be alarmed and a man doesn't have to act on his every whim when he meets a woman he finds attractive.

I have met many men I don't know in passing I find attractive I don't pass comment on their looks or ask them out why would I

You see my problem is that 96% of sexual violence is committed by men does not equate to 96% of men commit acts of sexual violence.

I go jogging and do not carry rape alarms. I walk the dog in the countryside alone and do not carry pepper spray/ rape alarms. I don't object to talking to men (or women) who I don't know for fear of attack or unwanted sexual advances.

Nor do most of the women I know.

At university I was more cautious because of the fact that there is alcohol involved and more of a presumption of promiscuity.

I still think it is sad to assume that men would only want to talk to you for sinister reasons.

Horny, but if people are just saying women are violent and I'm a woman then they are talking about me and I will feel the need to defend myself.

MrsDusty, there is no hidden assumption - I clarified it in my next post. I feel the same regardless of which sex gets given the job to even up the numbers. Thays why I said 'person'.

Well yes, as women are different. Which is why the general 'rule' makes sense as...just don't randomly approach women to chat them up.

Well, that's where we're differing. As not every time a man opens his mouth means he's automatically hitting on you!

You see my problem is that 96% of sexual violence is committed by men does not equate to 96% of men commit acts of sexual violence.

Well no, of course it doesn't mean 96% of blokes commit sexual violence. And noone claims that it does? Or if I did see someone claim that then I would challenge them on it.