To think there is a group on MN deliberately trying to downplay the institutional oppression of women?

[PerryPerryThePlatypus]

I've been hanging around these here parts since Pom Bears were just a bizarre crisp but more and more I see posters chipping away at other posters experiences, feelings of unease etc. It's difficult to articulate but it's just a shift from NAMALT to women are just as bad so stop complaining. An almost subtle silencing.

If the poster had written 'AIBU to think that men harassing women is a massive problem and most women have suffered some form of unwelcome attention from a man?' would you still feel like you had to defend men?

I remember a huge thread from not too long ago, the AIBU was basically 'have most women been sexually assaulted at some point in their lives' and yes, the NAMALTers were all over that too.

I would think it goes without saying that when discussing creeps...'nice men' are not included in that category (the are most men creeps thread..the poster clarified what they actually meant inside the thread too) but for some reason, any post like that will attract a large amount of 'women do it too!' and such posts. Its kind of odd. The analogy with a dog charity was spot on. Not sure if that was posted in this thread or another but its stuck with me

Derxa, I can't figure out if you're being sarcastic or not What, me?

Oh, and as PPs have said - valuing all kinds of carework much more highly than they currently are valued is vital too. This might mean providing more financial support, even wages, for the work of social reproduction.

That's fantastic, Tara! You've gone from "Feminists make me feel like I'm letting the sisterhood down" to "Wow, actually, I'm being screwed by the patriarchy" in about 6 posts. Fastest conversion ever!.

I believe you Krytens that absolutely nothing has ever happened to you - although surely you must have observed another woman being catcalled or a friend must have shared a negative experience with you

absolutely nowhere have I said that I don't believe others, of course lots of other people have been abused/assaulted.
I just don't believe in telling men they're not to talk to women is the right way to go. There's a world of difference between general chit chat and harassing someone.

Its not really about a man never approaching women, its...do not approach IF you are only approaching because she is a woman basically. That makes sense.

Tara, have a look at "mothers at home matter"
Feminist group for sahms :)

It's not a conversion at all Betrand It's therapy in a sense. I'm trying to understand how I feel about certain issues.

I'm not sure I said I was being screwed by anyone though. I make my own choices.

@taratill

I have as much earning potential as my husband yet I stay at home to look after the kids. (I am fortunate enough to be able to do some work from home). To an observer one might think that this is me conforming to some gender stereotypical role, it's not it's what I genuinely want to do. Not because I'm oppressed to playing second fiddle to the man in my life but because I want to see my kids grow up and I have better skills (more patience ) to deal with our disabled son.

I do feel as though there is some backlash against women who make those choices because we are somehow letting 'the sisterhood' down.

Crazy isn't it? Some women are happy to be at home with the kids, and AREN'T bowing down to the 'patriarchy' at all. Some women will deny all this of course. (Probably the ones who are a bit jealous that they can't stay at home! :P )

Similarly, some women lose weight and put make up on, and shave their bits and pits because they WANT to, not to please men.

I am sure some women will insist THIS is not true either.

I have known many a mum stay at home with the kids, and the women in their family(who have to work!) are sooooo bitchy and jealous. It's actually shocking. THEY are the ones 'letting the sisterhood down' with treating other women like shit for not conforming to what they think they should be doing!

We women are not letting ANYone down, if we are happy with what we are doing.

tara - that's absolutely brilliant that you have rewarding work you can do at home. Fantastic. And huge props to you for the 50/50 on the household chores - that remains an ideal for so very many women.

The only thing I would probe about your post is the "patience with the kids" thing. I do think this is something we learn, and I do think it's something men can learn too. I get a bit when women say "Oh, my husband doesn't have the patience for this [insert repetitive, tiring, difficult, sometimes boring task]". Because I often think it's just that some men have a sense of entitlement that they ought to be exempted from that, while not really recognising that this means that someone else has to pick up the slack. I appreciate, though, that these bargains are different for every couple. I wouldn't claim that I had them all correct in my own life, and even if I did, what is right for me might not be right for someone else!

telstar - the only reservation I have about SAHMs is that those who do it long-term can find themselves in quite a vulnerable financial position if the relationship should break down (God forbid!). It would be good if there could be some kind of structural change to protect them, because the work they are doing is far more socially important than any job! I particularly worry about things like pensions.

bumbley that's exactly what people are doing. On every thread about male violence I guarantee someone feels the need to say how lovely their men are, women are also violent, not all men - shouting down the discussion, because they don't like the wording used (?)

It would be so lovely to read 'that's never happened to me but I believe you and I think its an issue that needs to be addressed. I think {x} would help' - instead of endless 'my husband doesn't do that and neither does my son so I don't think it's fair on men'

And of course
"You're calling my/your own son a rapist"

whisky the only reservation I have about SAHMs is that those who do it long-term can find themselves in quite a vulnerable financial position if the relationship should break down

Please save us from your concern. It's very patronising.

it wasn't you who said that, and I get what you say 'a bit' however to tar all men (or all people of any class,race, religion etc) with the same brush. It doesn't sit well with me. It would be inappropriate to class all Muslims as terrorists......

Well as things currently stand, yes it would be. BUT, if 96% of all terrorist attacks were carried out by Muslims, then suddenly discussing an issue that clearly is an issue with a certain class of people (as a whole, not on an individual level obviously) is not as much of an issue. Or one would think. I would certainly have no issue with saying that terrorist attacks were a predominately Muslim problem IF the stats were anywhere near the same level as the male violence ones are.

speakout - I don't mean it to be patronising at all. I mean that there should be legal and financial protections for SAHMs built into the State.

And I said that I thought their job was the most important of all. Struggling to see how that is patronising?!

whiskeyowl I get what you are saying. My DS requires a particular kind of patience though that is not the same for NT children. Of course DH can learn that and he tries very hard to and is successful to a point. However DH cannot have the trust that I have built with DS due to having some very difficult times at him at home when DS had a complete breakdown last year and couldn't attend school. We have to tread carefully with DS at times and I am just better at getting it right now.

taratill - Wow, in that case I don't see how you could really share that bond of trust, it doesn't sound like it would be practical. Your poor DS. Sounds like he's had a really horrible time of it. He's lucky to have a lovely and supportive family around him.

thanks Whiskey

I agree Taratill. I'm not sure why the gauge of success seems to be these high power, long houred jobs away from home and family.

Sorry but I agree with @whiskyOwl and didn't see her as patronising at all!

Yeah it is great to be a SAHM but you do have to make sure you are as much 'in charge' of the finances as your husband. Don't let him give you an 'allowance' or control the finances.

There is the risk of course of dropping out of the workplace, and struggling to get back in again, but many women do have 7-10 years or so off work and then manage to go back with very little trouble. I have seen many women do it.

If you were off for more than 2 decades it may be a different matter, but not that many women do stay off that long really. Not women with a career anyway. Maybe women who had an ordinary minimum pay job, but most women with 'careers' would be less likely to give it up for a long time IYSWIM.

Not meaning to put down anyone with a minimum pay job by the way.

Just saying women who did them would be more likely to give up work altogether, (or for 15-20+ years, or as long as they were able to.)

Whisky, or it could just be a personality thing rather than a man/woman thing.

Pumper, but on support threads the vast majority of posts are of the I believe you/that's awful ilk. As I said earlier, it would not be as relevant/helpful for someone to come on to that throw of thread with the 'well my DH/DS wouldn't have done that' response. This particular thread was asking if she WBU to think that most men are creeps. She is going to get different responses and it does lend itself to the 'no, actually, my experience of men doesn't lead me to think that' type of response. I can see we're not going to agree on this though. All this has already been said.

I know exactly what you mean, whiskyowl, I am very grateful that I have my own money (inheritance). I trust my DH explicitly and I don’t see us ever breaking up, but I saw how hard it was for my MIL when my FIL died in a car accident. You just never know what’s around the corner.