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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To secretly fill a Christmas Charity shoebox with as good as new toys?

190 replies

ferriswheel · 15/10/2017 01:26

I've filled an authentic one already. But all things considered I could do a great job of 'nearly new' version.

Or is this very bad karma?

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 15/10/2017 13:19

The Rotary Club one provides a list of all the place they delivered to in 2017. It is only in Europe. Its is also not linked to one religion and as a means to spread that religion.

I would be much more comfortable with this.

exexpat · 15/10/2017 13:23

Greenleaf - there are existing Christians in Nepal, forming a very small minority, but that it is irrelevant here and you know it: it is crystal clear from Samaritan's Purse's own materials (videos, website etc) that they use the Operation Christmas Child shoeboxes as a way in to communities and children who they would otherwise not be able to reach. The goal is evangelism and conversion, using the children to bring whole families into the church. Some shoeboxes may go to children who already attend church, but it is clear that the vast majority do not.

HidingBehindTheWallpaper · 15/10/2017 13:26

Is it because it makes atheists look bad?

Quite the opposite. When an atheist does something for charity, like donate to the local food bank, we do it because we want to help people, not because we think it’ll make a deity happy and we will go to heaven.

Greenleaf54321 · 15/10/2017 13:28

Greenleaf - there are existing Christians in Nepal, forming a very small minority

so what do you expect international christians to do? support them or not? Of course they will support them. As I keep saying, OCC is a Christian organisation, if you are not in sympathy with its aims, then please do support a different charity instead. Christians are evangelistic. OCC is evangelistic. Evangelistic Christians in other parts of the world support each other, OCC is one of the ways they do that.

Christians want to share their faith. That is part of the Christian faith. If you don't have any Christian faith yourself, then you are probably going to prefer to support someone else, please do so, there are many.

exexpat · 15/10/2017 13:28

Regarding the threats by Operation Christmas Child UK against posters on mumsnet - I was one of the most active posters on all the threads at the time, but was not threatened with legal action. It is perfectly possible to criticise OCC and draw attention to their methods and the unpleasant beliefs of the organisation's leader without getting into legal trouble: you just need to post links to their own websites and quotes from Franklin Graham, and they condemn themselves in their own words.

exexpat · 15/10/2017 13:29

Green leaf - but you seem to be claiming that they do not evangelise in places like Nepal (only giving boxes to existing Christian children) which is patently untrue.

PosiePootlePerkins · 15/10/2017 13:30

Thank you Redtoothbrush I will give a couple to my school then.

Greenleaf54321 · 15/10/2017 13:30

we do it because we want to help people, not because we think it’ll make a deity happy and we will go to heaven

this is a total misunderstanding of Christianity.

You go to heaven because you have faith, not for anything at all that you do. You cannot do anything at all to get into a relationship with God on your own merits, because you can never be perfect.

So Christians will go to heaven whether they donate to charity or not, it makes no difference at all.

Greenleaf54321 · 15/10/2017 13:33

Green leaf - but you seem to be claiming that they do not evangelise in places like Nepal (only giving boxes to existing Christian children) which is patently untrue.

you are totally misunderstanding what "existing Christian" means, many children around the world are culturally Christian, that does not mean having a Christian faith.

OCC evangelism happens "where it is culturally appropriate", in other words, largely in Christian cultures, where invited by locals, where it is wanted.

Want2bSupermum · 15/10/2017 13:38

I love the program in our town. You drop off new towns at the fire station. Poor parents who can't afford Christmas go to the fire station on Christmas morning and a fireman dresses up as santa. The team cook breakfast so the families come in have a hot meal. The children get at least one toy each.

Last year DH and I badgered target and Walmart to give us toys they didn't expect to sell and would heavily discount anyway. The manager of target was brilliant and cut us a big deal which included bed linen sets for children, cookery items for adults and clothing items such as shoes, jewelry and handbags, backpacks etc. It meant that kids, parents and teens all got something.

WeAllHaveWings · 15/10/2017 13:42

Our work collects presents each year, gifts or filled boxes and we attach a label saying boy/girl/unisex and age.

The gifts are collected and taken to the local woman's aid refuge.

sashh · 15/10/2017 13:43

but to be honest, I would have thought it would cause more resentment against the Christian church then anything else.

If your child has never had a toy, or never had anything new then you are probably going to let them sit through it, and then you are told there is something more wonderful for your child if they attend classes for a few weeks you are probably going to let your kid go.

fridgepants · 15/10/2017 13:50

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the user's request.

RedToothBrush · 15/10/2017 13:54

I'd rather sponsor a Nepalese child through education tbh. There are many charities that do with a non-religious agenda.

I'd rather do that, than send a shoebox / sponsorship with a Christian message. Even if that child IS Christian. Many Christians also feel its inappropriate to do so, in some areas of the world.

When a charity makes the point that they are Christian they have a particular agenda which is in addition to the work that they do. This can be ethical, but the point is that it immediately carries a cultural sensitivity that should be respected. There is nothing wrong with Christian charity. Its a good thing. But it also has a point to why it is a Christian charity rather than a neutral charity without a religious background.

The issue with having Christian messages at all, in a box raises a conflict of interest question about what the purpose of their charity work is about. Is it to help or to encourage particular religious beliefs? Being able to answer the question to the satisfaction of those with criticisms is crucial. Either so they can support it in the future, or can continue to level criticism.

People should be free to voice ANY concern, without fear. The problem is that this particular charity had a problem with this in the UK, where people are more able to raise concerns and challenge practices. There are places in the world where this is much more difficult. That again raises questions.

The lack of transparency, the information that the charity gives themselves and the aggressive way in which they approach criticism creates a dynamic which is unhealthy and many people are very suspicious about and dislike.

People should be able to know exactly what their donations are for, and what a charity's full intentions are and whether they match with their own beliefs.

May I ask, do you have links yourself to this charity? I know that they have had regular posters who have been quite heavily involved with the charity on MN in the past.

RedToothBrush · 15/10/2017 13:57

you are totally misunderstanding what "existing Christian" means, many children around the world are culturally Christian, that does not mean having a Christian faith.

OCC evangelism happens "where it is culturally appropriate", in other words, largely in Christian cultures, where invited by locals, where it is wanted.

Actually that's a matter of opinion.

You will find that lots of posters here will regard your definition differently and will disagree with OCC's view of what culturally appropriate is.

This is part of the problem. This is something which OCC are defining and lots of people don't trust this organisation and their definitions.

Olddear · 15/10/2017 14:00

Franklin Graham supports Trump. Says it all.

DoJo · 15/10/2017 14:04

ManicInsomniac

I do one organised through a facebook group every year. People send in names and addresses of children and elderly people in financial or emotional need and the organiser sends each volunteer an address or two to make up a box for. Nothing sinister involved and no strings attached at all.

So the volunteers are actually given the addresses of people in need? Is there a vetting process? Who does that and how does it work?

hesterton · 15/10/2017 14:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

flowery · 15/10/2017 14:50

"OCC is a Christian organisation, if you are not in sympathy with its aims, then please do support a different charity instead."

That's sound advice, however my concern is that so many people support the charity in complete ignorance of its aims. If they've researched it, understand and support the homophobic, islamophobic, intolerant and evangelical aims of the charity, they are making an informed decision which is in line with their own beliefs. Fine. And that may apply to you, if you support it as you say you do. Hopefully you are doing so in an informed way.

But I reckon a large proportion of the people who make up these boxes genuinely have no idea they are supporting such an awful organisation.

Workaholic28 · 15/10/2017 15:09

I was shocked when I discovered the hidden agenda behind this charity.

The show box idea is brilliant though, would be great if a secular organisation could take over the idea.

Mountainpika · 15/10/2017 15:09

New member - joined so I could post on this thread.
I have done shoe boxes in the past but wasn't comfortable. (I'm an atheist.)

I now support a charity which sends school bags with stationery to children in various parts of the world to give them a chance of education. Every penny donated goes into the the bags.
I know this to be true as I raise money for it.
So far I have raised enough for 30+ bags which I have actually packed myself and paid for at various events. The charity buys the pens, pencils etc, so each child has the same.

Each bag is given a number and that number is recorded under the donor's name. The bags can then be tracked and you can see exactly where they go, even to the extent of the name, age and photo of the recipient with the bag.
It's quite something to pack a bag and then see a picture of a child in Africa or Romania, for example, holding that bag and thinking, "I packed that bag and the first person to open it is that child."

The charity arose from a sad event but it gives hope to so many children now.

www.schoolinabag.org/

SoupDragon · 15/10/2017 15:11

What is the point of evangelising where the people are already Christian?

Mountainpika · 15/10/2017 15:11

P.S. School In A Bag has no hidden agenda, religious or otherwise.

RedToothBrush · 15/10/2017 15:18

What is the point of evangelising where the people are already Christian?

This.

IncyWincyGrownUp · 15/10/2017 15:25

Mountain that scheme looks great, thanks for posting.

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