Delicate folks and less robust people

[ILikeyourHairyHands]

It's Saturday night and I've had a few beers so I guess I'm feeling a bit fighty, but only because this is something that's been bothering me for a while and it has been sparked by the 'Books you wished you'd never read' thread, a number of posters said they had thrown books away rather than subject people to the content.

And films people wished they'd never watched because they were traumatised.

But, and this is the big but, where I'm probably going to get a thrashing, there are often threads about abortion, where posters say you 'Will never get over it'.

And threads about miscarriage where people say, 'You will never get over it'.

And I completely respect their stance and experience, BUT, as someone who has had both miscarriages and abortions I found them both very easy to get over and put behind me, and I think the telling women that they Won't, can make things much harder for people.

If they do, they may feel guilt, or it may make women feel they can't have an abortion because they will always feel conflict.

I guess my point is, everyone responds to things differently, you can't go round chucking books away because you found them distasteful, you can't council a woman who has had a miscarriage she will never get over it and you can't advise against an abortion because it 'will affect you forever'.

And yes, it is a goady title but I'm a little bit irritated about absolutism when it comes down to women, choice, and mental health.

It's ok to be ok.

I'm not sure if I agree with OP or not. I very firmly believe people react to different situations differently. For example I currently have cancer and find all the 'supportive memes and ads for brave the shave etc really really annoying. Not in the slightest supportive just reminding me every 5 mins I have cancer.

But on the other hand I have been through some of the most awful experiences you can and within my friendship group we have experienced just about every traumatic experience and guess what...we all got over them - all of us got over everything. Some took longer than others some developed ptsd etc but ultimately we got over everything.

So do the vast majority of people.

' some people will just pester the shit out of you, because they've read some bullshit book about how everyone needs to be 'more in touch with their feelings'. Sometimes these people are just gullible dumbfucks, sometimes they are power-tripping meddlers who are determined to a) get all the juicy details from you and b) see you cry.'

This. Some people just want to control you. A lot of people believe talking or counselling will fix you so you'll just not make them uncomfortable anymore. This is especially true of bereaved parents, IME.

some developed ptsd etc but ultimately we got over everything.

If you have PTSD you've not got over whatever caused it! You may be able to learn to manage your feelings, and you may stop talking about it so people assume all is well. PTSD is not something that disappears.

I’ve had miscarriages and an abortion. I’d say I’m over them.

I honestly never got all the fuss about miscarriage or abortion.

I am in many other ways a very sensitive person.

But the whole "changed me as a person" thing I have never undrestood.

Secretly, I think they have lived very comfortable lives when nothing "bad" has ever happened and they have a full expectation of straightforward lives, hence the shock when something difficult happens it seems to affect them in an overpowering way.

Pretty harsh and unsympathetic to judge your mother for finding her mc and “normal” childbirths upsetting many years on.

“Delicate folks” is so patronising and superior. Someone having had something happen that they personally found very difficult, that you think you have experienced and been fine, doesn’t make them weak or “delicate”.

I recycled Gina Ford and all the other baby books rather than give them away because my view was that the advice was shit! My property, my choice!

Also miscarriage often happens because Mother Nature is genuinely and sweetly trying to do her best. Another reason I don't really understand why people are so angry and distressed for the rest of their lives about this one thing that happened to them.

Yeah, those weak delicate types who have had easy lives that just can’t have a stiff upper lip and carry on eh?

Infertility, recurrent mc, sadness about termination, abusive relationships, mugging, sexual assault: what is serious enough for the “robust” people to empathise?

FFS.

I don't think OP was talking about mugging or sexual assault .

Just the whole miscarriage and abortion thing which women are supposed to be hysterical about, never get over, etc.

p.s. I would always throw away a crappy or "suspect" book rather than recycle it or sell it.

Right, so it’s only fertility and reproduction related stuff we’re meant to just get over?

After all, infertility and mc is “mother nature”.

FYI many, many mcs, particularly recurrent mcs, are not due to genetic anomalies (if that’s what you meant by “mother nature”).

'some developed ptsd etc but ultimately we got over everything.'

Erm, no, plenty of them 'got over it' by succumbing to substance addiction, violence and suicide.

I've known people have miscarriages and get over it quickly by saying they'll just conceive again next month- and do. I suffered with infertility for 3 years and became pregnant twice following fertility treatment. I miscarried both at around 10 weeks. Considering the amount of time it took to get that far, it wasn't particularly easy to get over (and I was only in my late 20s/early 30s). Circumstances are very different in many cases. NB I now have 2 healthy children a number of years later (via IVF) but wonder if it would have been as easy to 'move on' if I'd never managed a successful pregnancy.

I don't think OP was talking about mugging or sexual assault hmm.

Just the whole miscarriage and abortion thing which women are supposed to be hysterical about, never get over, etc.

Oh, it's just the 'women things' that you're going to mock people for being 'making a fuss about' then. What a surprise.

I agree it's more complex, but it's also hard to judge from the outside. The one positive of my childhood is that everything else is a walk in the park, bluntly, surviving that without going insane has made me incredibly resilient. On the other hand I had a small breakdown when an elderly pet died. Partly because of it not being something being strong minded could solve, but not the first pet I've lost. Mainly because it triggered things I'd rather forget. I also find that the older dd and I get, the more I realise just how fucked up my childhood was. But to an acquaintance, even one who understands grieving a pet, it would have looked like an overreaction.

I think less resilient people also need to bear in mind that the person they are leaning on/ looking for sympathy from might have suffered/ be suffering from their own trauma. And therefore not in a position to support someone else, rather than being heartless and unsupportive. But if you appear tough on the outside less resilient people tend to judge you harshly if you don't prop them up. I'm more than happy to support anyones problem, but having had no choice but to crack on through serious problems, I have very low tolerance for people who don't have other complications but want to wallow in self pity about minor first world problems and dump their emotional neediness on others without caring about whether that person has worse issues. The kind of person who has never had to deal with a real problem in their life.

thedistant the delayed breakdown is 'proof' if you like that you are incredibly strong. If you were weak you would have collapsed long ago. But us strong minded sorts just soldier on till breaking point rather than leaning on people as soon as things get hard.

Oh well, I will stick my head above parapet. My cousin had a very similar experience to me (sexual assault). She was quite traumatised. I was pissed off but not least bit traumatised.

tbh, there are lots of things in life I shrug off but other people say they were deeply upset by when it happened to them. It would be boring if we are all the same, but I can't relate to how they feel and I can't produce huge sympathetic noises I don't feel. I notice this difference a lot on MN. I doubt I would have minded much if I had been infertile. At 5 yr old I decided of course I'd never get married or have kids (no one would ever want me & I didn't like kids). I get impression those are unusual expectations, they would have shaped my future responses.

I am quite happy if that makes me heartless!! I cry at stupid adverts; I cried for first 10 minutes of Hidden Figures (the inherent injustice of the situation was too painful). I'm GLAD I'm not a complete softie in all respects.

I was damaged by bullying as a kid & told to just get over it, just a little teasing, etc. So I'm doubly glad if it turns out I've toughened up a little as an adult compared to others.

Totally agree, OP. And I also agree with the pp who said that the internet and social media are making it impossible not to be made to feel that we should feel a certain way about things.

Also, some people can be very resilient about certain types of thing but not about others. For example, some are susceptible to things which provoke anxiety or stress-type responses but not very susceptible to emotional/sadness type responses.

But us strong minded sorts just soldier on till breaking point rather than leaning on people as soon as things get hard.

That's one narrative. Another could be 'strong people know and are brave enough to seek help about problems early so they can move on with their lives. Weak people aren't strong enough to face it so they push it down until it hits crisis point.' I'm not trying to say I think this - I'd actually rather we avoid the very judgemental terms 'strong' and 'weak' here - I just want to point out that these aren't clear-cut and definite categories.

Oh yes, have definitely found that the sort of people who make a lot of noise about the importance of being in touch with your feelings, and who plague other people for being 'cold' or 'emotionally repressed' are also very keen on having their own feelings indulged and catered to all the time.
They pride themselves on being 'open', on 'not being too proud to be vulnerable' and all that crap - never realising that they are often boring the pants off their friends - or that other people would sometimes like a night out to consist of a few beers and some dancing, not endless discussion of the same person's Terrible Sadness every time...

margaret but seeking help and actually receiving it aren't available to some people/ situations. It's either fall apart or carry on with no middle ground or other options. In which case the person who can turn to others for help, or fall apart without dire consequences has a luxury by comparison. Especially if abuse has been involved, sometimes not telling others if last time it made it worse is a hard learnt survival skill by itself and not easily switched off as an adult. i.e don't rely on anyone but yourself.

I know someone who is often thought as cold/ uncaring about pnd. Has been known to tell people with it to get a grip etc. On the other hand she is lovely about almost everything else, and hugely, out of her way supportive of anyone with severe pnd, or mothers with pnd and no support.

She's neither cold or ignorant. But she was a single unsupported mother with moderate pnd. And services being stretched as they are, her situation was either cope alone or risk care. No offence to ss or the many sw's who would love it to be different but the resources aren't there to properly support completely alone parents before the problem is severe enough to warrant intervention, which with pnd especially is a vicious circle. As a result she has very low tolerance for say a woman with mild pnd, a supportive partner and a support network if they choose to offload on her of all people.

The Dreadful Warnings about abortion, definitely.

Also the Weight of Guilt about leaving your baby to go back to work/being a working mother.

It depends on circumstances. For some, an abortion brings only relief

I agree, it isn't helpful at all to talk in absolutes, we are all different and circumstances are different.

But if the aim is to have people be less judgemental/ narrow minded/ absolute and more reasonable and empathetic, I'm not sure how having a thread with a self-admitted 'goady title', is going to help with that.

Also, resilience is finite - put people through enough and everyone will break. How soon and how hard depends on the circumstances; prior experience, frequency, degree and depth of the duress etc, but as they say with torture.. everybody breaks in the end.

I’m not sure I’ll ever get over Fifty Shades. I binned the books.

The bad writing should be made illegal. They were bloody awful.

I was not slating my mother for any genuine upset. Trust me, she also used to bang on about how being a parent is a terrible burden and advise my sister and I to 'never have children'.
It's the accepted narrative that these are 'traumatic' events and the only reasonable course of action is to forever bemoan your ill fate that I disagree with.
I was bloody terrified of childbirth and being a parent after of this nonsense.
It sunk in despite me knowing rationally she was wrong.
I would never judge someone for their upset over fertility issues, regret over a termination or feeling distressed by a book or film. It's the insistence that everyone else will feel the same I disagree with.

Which is the book thread ?