Delicate folks and less robust people

[ILikeyourHairyHands]

It's Saturday night and I've had a few beers so I guess I'm feeling a bit fighty, but only because this is something that's been bothering me for a while and it has been sparked by the 'Books you wished you'd never read' thread, a number of posters said they had thrown books away rather than subject people to the content.

And films people wished they'd never watched because they were traumatised.

But, and this is the big but, where I'm probably going to get a thrashing, there are often threads about abortion, where posters say you 'Will never get over it'.

And threads about miscarriage where people say, 'You will never get over it'.

And I completely respect their stance and experience, BUT, as someone who has had both miscarriages and abortions I found them both very easy to get over and put behind me, and I think the telling women that they Won't, can make things much harder for people.

If they do, they may feel guilt, or it may make women feel they can't have an abortion because they will always feel conflict.

I guess my point is, everyone responds to things differently, you can't go round chucking books away because you found them distasteful, you can't council a woman who has had a miscarriage she will never get over it and you can't advise against an abortion because it 'will affect you forever'.

And yes, it is a goady title but I'm a little bit irritated about absolutism when it comes down to women, choice, and mental health.

It's ok to be ok.

I think though sometimes people parrot a learned response automatically in response to what is perceived as bad/sad/distressing news. A mum in a baby class I got chatting to told me that her first DC was stillborn and without even thinking about it I said "You'll never get over it, life will never be the same again and you'll just have to adjust to what is now your new normal" What makes that even more excruciatingly mortifying is that I am trained in counselling skills. I had no intention of being patronizing or homogenizing her experience, it just came out

A lot of people are incredibly bad at recognising that not everyone feels the same about the same experiences.

Hear, hear. That sums it all up really.
If more people could recognise and accept this, the world would be a better place.

However, I will reserve the right to throw away something I own, if I feel it's such shite quality that I'd rather not pass it on. I've done this a few times with DVDs and books and that's fine imo.

Suk Did you get a chance to apologise to that mum?

I'm on the fence with this one- I have always been described as strong, robust and tough. Able to cope with anything.

Then four months ago I had a breakdown and am being assessed for PTSD.

All the shit from my childhood, subsequent abusive relationship, miscarriages wasn't dealt with or processed, I just got on it with it. I can't count the number of people who've said "I don't know how you do it".

Well, obviously, I wasn't doing as well as I thought. I hadn't dealt with it and it's come back to bite me on the ass.

I've become one of the people I couldn't understand- the 'weak' ones who have panic attacks on buses and can't cope with large crowds.

I think it's down to how you process and deal. We should all be a little kinder to each other. You don't know how you would react in the same situation.

Slightly different, but within a couple of years of my mum's death while I was in my 20s, a colleague at work (who was about 50ish) said she thought it was pathetic when grown adults needed more than a week off work to deal with the death of a parent.
She didn't know, but I had a week off whilst my mum was dying in the hospice and over 2 months' unpaid leave afterwards.
And I did manage to say that every situation is different, that grief can be complex especially in damaged relationships and personally I felt no shame for not having coped as well as others.

And it's ok to bounce back to work - but it's equally ok not to be able to. Neither say anything about whether you loved the person or are a moral statement or are a reflection on your work ethic.

"People are resilient, "

Not as resilient as we were ever made out to be. The human mind and brain can be fragile.

"I do sometimes think that people's natural resilience has been torn down by access to too much information and other people's opinions."

Other people's opinions can be a support. Thinking back to when young or unmarried Mothers were supposed to just give their babies away and not look back, thankfully opinions were taken on board and things changed and because of that, some Motherd had some closure.

Thinking about ex army personal, women who have been raped, lived through DV and more extreme kidnap and used as a sex slave. We are now recognising that help is needed to make a partial recovery, at least.

Certainly for ex army, the suicide rate has slightly dropped.

Children were always thought of as resilient, they wasn't, they were often left with life long issues.

We should advise people in a way that they can get to a functioning lifestyle, with happy times, riding roughshod over what's happening in their head, won't do that.

Our experiences change us, ignoring that isn't being resilient.

I don't criticise people for being 'weak'. They are feeling how they're feeling and my heart goes out to them.

I just sometimes muse if people could handle things differently themselves with better direction, but then that's what counselling is all about isn't it. So we'd be saying counselling is bullshit if we didn't recognise that there are ways to handle things that lead to a better outcome. It's not people's fault however if they don't intrinsically know how to best protect themselves without guidance.

If I did thankfully. She actually said that what I said summed up how she felt, but I am aware that it did come out as a "one size fits all" type of saying. My original point is that people may not be forcing a statement upon others "you'll never get over it" (re abortion) but they are saying it because it seems the right thing to say in order to empathize.

I think even resilient people have their kryptonite. I consider myself resilient. I have dealt with bereavement, miscarriage and much of the other shyte life has thrown at me pretty well. However, infertility has left its legacy. It will always have an effect (because it dictated my family size - I have an only child when I really didn't want that as an only child myself). It also made my 30s a very sad decade.

I know people who never ever 'move on' at all about anything - even the small things are played and re-hashed.
I know its hard, I do sympathise with people when bad things happen to them, but trying to carry on doing this 15 or even 20 years later is not on and my patience does start to wear thin.
I wouldnt even call myself that robust, but I also dont tend to overshare with anyone as I am aware that its my own battle and i have to sort it out in my own head and work through things - some people just can't and i do understand that too. Some times people do need to 'man up' a bit, but its not always easy.

I am extraordinarily resilient.
I also had PTSD for ten years.
The two things are related.

Anyway...
I had a mc and was upset but got over it very quickly and often forget it happened. But it was uncomplicated, early and I went on to have 4 more children. Its not surprising it didn't traumatise me.

I wonder if the insistence by others that 'you will never get over it' contributes to the feelings of trauma and distress felt by women who would otherwise recover fairly quickly?

If you are being told by the world and every other meme on FB that a mc is the single most terrible thing that can ever happen to a momma, you might start to doubt your recovery and therefore develop issues because of it?

Have you heard Jeremy Kyle on the subject? He will be talking to a couple. The man is a violent meth addict, the woman is a battered, 17 year old care leaver who was removed from her family because of abuse, she has been with this man since she was 14. He beats her,rapes her, pimps her and steals from her.
She recently had a mc at 6 weeks.
JK will say 'she LOST HER BABY. THAT IS THE WORST THING THAT CAN HAPPEN TO A WOMAN EVER'

And I think 'fuck Jezza, talk about missing the issue here'

But tens of thousands of young women watch that show.

I am not blaming JK for the whole thing (tempting as it is) but this mawkish insistence may be part of the issue.

BUT to be very clear. Distress and trauma at MC or Abortion can be perfectly normal. Neither set of emotions is wrong.

I had an abortion when I was at uni (pill didn't work, condom broke, failed MAP - GP told me I was 'unlucky') and while it was a difficult experience, I don't regret it. Then in my thirties, I went through years of infertility and miscarriages caused by an immune problem, before finally having a child through surrogacy 11 years after starting TTC.

I am 'over' both the abortion and miscarriages in the sense that they don't affect my daily life, but they are part of my past and will stay with me. However, I still find storylines about abortions, miscarriages and infertility difficult to watch/read about, but I guess that's understandable.

I have been told I am 'brave' for 'battling' infertility (I'm not, I'm just stubborn!) but I consider myself to be a complete wuss (I still tear up at the Amazon Prime advert with the dog dressed as a lion).

People can be delicate and robust at the same time. We're complex fuckers, us humans.

Birds you make a very good point.
Its very common for bereaved parents to be told 'its not healthy for you to spend so much time with other parents whose children have died'

The idea is that being with these people is depressing and will encourage you to 'dwell' and not 'move on'
The opposite is most often true. Being able to talk about your dead child with others who understand is healthy and helps the process.
Feeling 'normal' in a world where you are an alien is comforting and good for mental health.

I still think the internet can be harmful to the process of recovery. You don't know who you are talking to and it can suit others to keep someone where they are. Look at Pro Ana etc.

YANBU. I have incurable cancer. Even when I was first diagnosed and it wasn’t incurable, people just assumed I felt a certain way and sort of pushed it on me. Some people even suggested I was mentally ill just because I didn’t react how they thought I should. I wasn’t upset or anxious and I certainly didn’t think “why me” or that I didn’t deserve it (who does deserve cancer?!). Then when it became incurable everyone assumed I would be depressed and stuff. I’m really not. I often forget I have cancer and when I do think about my impending death it is with curiosity rather than self pity. I am quite factual about it all. It’s very frustrating to be hugged and have people going on about how awful it is when I just want to get on with my life while I can. It’s fine to feel those things, but it is also fine not to. Everyone’s reaction is equally valid, assuming it isn’t harmful to anyone.

Obviously I have the luxury of feeling OK about it because I’m currently quite well, I have treatment available on the NHS, I have a great support network, I don’t have children to worry about etc etc

What I find irritating now is that everyone talks about “triggering”. I thought triggering was related to PTSD and similar conditions. Now I keep hearing people using it when they just mean something has upset them, which really isn’t comparable.

A lot of people are incredibly bad at recognising that not everyone feels the same about the same experiences

This. Or likes the same things, enjoys the same things, has different tastes, traditions and morals.

Particularly on Mumsnet. I've never come across people so narrow minded and aggressive in real life.

Sorry I've not read all the thread.

I get where you are coming from OP. I sometimes post on threads where the OP has had a miscarriage and is asking for advice and others people's experiences. I recall how I had a miscarriage at 13 weeks and that it was sad but not a big deal for me at all. I don't even remember the dates. I phrase it as tactfully as possible and make it absolutely clear that this was my own experience and that everyone's experience is different etc etc I sometimes think that if someone who has had a miscarriage and is being told that by lots of people that it's a huge awful and traumatic thing and they are feeling ok about it that they might start to think there is something wrong if they don't feel traumatised.

The other thing that I notice is that posters are often encouraging OPs to take as long as possible off work that they can following a bereavement whereas I think that it can often be helpful to go back to work sooner rather than later. Again, I try and phrase this tactfully and I understand that it's not the right thing for everyone but it's what works for me.

I agree with you OP.
It's like 'pointing the bone' and telling people they have two weeks to live and they die on the 14th day. Autosuggestion is strong. If you are told you will never get over it, a lot of people won't.

Agree with mysecret that there's a risk of encouraging "This is something you should feel sad/ guilty/traumatised about and if you don't there's something wrong with you."

Yes the risk of encouraging people not to get over it, or making people feel there is something wrong with them if they do, is probably high.
People deal with things in different ways. A relative who died young from incurable cancer, was very matter of fact about it and did not want to talk about how they felt at all. Simply wanted to crack on with living the life they still had left. A friend who has incurable cancer goes to a weekly support group and does want to talk about it. Neither approach is wrong as long as you have a choice.

Personally I think worse things can and do happen than a miscarriage or abortion.

So the murder of your child for example.
Saying something is the worst that can happen to someone is never helpful. They may already be dealing with worse things.

There's also the fact that if you are resilient, and are coping well with something unfortunate, some people will just pester the shit out of you, because they've read some bullshit book about how everyone needs to be 'more in touch with their feelings'. Sometimes these people are just gullible dumbfucks, sometimes they are power-tripping meddlers who are determined to a) get all the juicy details from you and b) see you cry.

SGB I see you've met my sister . To be fair, she's had the misfortune to grow up a 'talk it through'er' in a family of 'forget it and move on'ers' but she's basically convinced I'm emotionally repressed. She may well be right but ain't a damn thing going to change that now.

There are definitely people who like to suffer, who like to be seen to suffer, who like to be a martyr and who like to be offended. Also some people can't cope with their own problems and some can't cope with others'.

I have a friend who will always describe a problem as being "on top of everything else". "Everything else" being a nice home, a stable job, an excellent education, a supportive family, a good income, good mental and physical health and a strong marriage.

But yes, telling someone they can't recover from a difficult or painful experience is unlikely to be helpful in the long run, imo.

YANBU about wanting there to be more than one acceptable response to an abortion or MC. I quite often post on abortion threads purely to point out that I had one, it was the right decision and I have never had any regrets (just to offset the "you'll definitely always regret it"-ers).

Must admit I don't think throwing away a book or dvd is quite the same thing. Going round telling people they will hate X book would be the same but choosing to get rid of it rather than pass it on isn't quite the same

It's not just a question of feeling differently about 'the same' experience. It's that in fact no two experiences are exactly the same, they may be siilar, with the same basic factors, but they are never the same. The same events can be more or less traumatic because of when they happened, how they relate to past experience, how others reacted to them, what people said to you, how much support you had etc etc.

I had a very traumatic experience a few years back, and the trauma was specifically mine because of the circumstances surrounding it. I will never get over it, I have had counselling, but I have flashbacks, feelings of great fear and dread etc etc. They aren't as frequent now, but it has changed my life for ever. I have however got used to it, and manage to live my life in a relatively normal way, and have in many ways 'moved on' From the outside I appear a fairly strong person. It's apersona I maintain as best I can. I use a lot of humour to disguise my true feelings.

I wouldn;t presume to say that anyone experiecing a similar event would never get over it. I wouldn't know. I only know my own feelings.

However I also find the kind of time lines people set out for others recovery pretty intolerable - people can be very fond of telling you that after a certain period you 'should have got over it, you should have moved on' often people who have never experienced the same trauma.

I just feel we should be careful of using our own feelings to either catastrophise or dismiss others similar experiences. And allow people the opportunity to express how they feel, and listen rather than offering absolute judgements.

I think it is Ok to say 'I will never get over this thing that happened' it is an acknowledgement that some things change you for ever and that from now on your life is being lived in a different way, it can still be a contented life, but it is not the same as it was.
To me that is what 'not getting over' something means. You incorporate your trauma into your life - it affects how you think and act and feel. It doesn't end your life, or even necessarily ruin your life, but it does end the life you had envisaged and were experiencing until it happened.