to think that class isn't just a British thing

[WyclefJohn]

Class gets discussed a lot on MN, and I often see someone say something along the lines of that is such a British obsession, and you don't see it elsewhere.

In my experience, social class exists in every country, because it's a natural result of what happens when some people have more privilege then others. In my experience, I've yet to visit a country where social class doesn't to some extent determine your success in life - be it from the US, to continental Europe, Africa, Asia and so on.

When British people go abroad, they may not recognise the cues, but I am yet to see a country where they don't exist.

AIBU?

In the US, money alone doesn't buy class. But a lot of the things that money does buy, a top-flight education chief among them, smooths out class distinctions.

And I disagree with the notion that you can't move class in the US in one generation. Being self-made is actually usually a social plus in the US. Or, as my mother used to say, nouveau-riche is better then no riche at all.

I agree with the person up thread who said that working and upper class have quite a bit in common: boxing, horse racing spring to mind. Not bothering about things matching, old cars. A generalisation as is anything we say about class but there’s some truth in it. Yes too to less moralistic attitude to swearing in both classes.
I’m sure all countries have classes but I wonder if they make quite such harsh judgments as the British. For example in her book, Watching the English, Katie Fox says that the class a British person hates the most is the one immediately below the class that person is from with the distinctions being much finer than working, middle and upper. I think she’s right but really that’s incredible. “Hate”! Do other nationalities make such strong judgments about such fine lines?
Also re Christmas decorations, is putting them up really early (before mid December) also a working class indicator?

Oldie, have you read the thread about working in a shop? Or any thread involving benefits for poor but working families? There's a lot more talk of fecklessness than of salt of the earth.

The thread about working in a shop is nothing to do with class. Those of us who grew up in poverty are allowed to have aspirations for our children you know

Calling someone working class as salt of the earth is really patronising.

Existential - I fail to see how sneering at retail workers and care assistants and assuming that they are too thick/lazy to do anything else and so ought to live in poverty is showing respect to people of all classes and thinking of working class people as the backbone of society.

Oldie2017 Sat 07-Oct-17 15:38:27
"cory, I don't agree that many British people think working class people are bad at stuff. Instead we think salt of the earth, core back bone of Britain is the hard working working class man and his wife etc."

That seems to me very much like a pre-1980s way of thinking. Even that expression "man and his wife"- who talks like that these days? It's what you read in books, not what you see on television or hear in the street.

"Only the uneducated would look down on others."

Here you are: only the uneducated would have a negative and sneering attitude. And which are the uneducated- just remind me again?

Assuming that the "uneducated" are less generous and less humane in their attitudes is precisely the kind of thing I was talking about. Very, very prevalent.

Reminds me of a friend of mine who was discussing starting a mother and baby class in our (demographically mixed) area, the idea being that the other mothers "could learn from us". To which (to her eternal credit!) another m-c friend piped up with "maybe we could learn from them". Cue, complete consternation on face of first friend: the idea that "people like her" might have something to learn from "people like them" had simply never occurred.

Personally, I have never felt that my PhD in an obscure corner of historical research has made me in any way a better parent or a better housekeeper or a more humane and thoughtful person than my friends with a small handful of O-levels or GCSE's. But the idea is very prevalent: that we just Know Better.

Existential - I fail to see how sneering at retail workers and care assistants and assuming that they are too thick/lazy to do anything else and so ought to live in poverty is showing respect to people of all classes and thinking of working class people as the backbone of society

You obviously didn't read the thread because nobody was sneering at anyone and they weren't saying any such thing. In fact people were saying the very opposite. How strange of you to twist it so nastily and lie about what other people say!

That thread was patronising at times

The good old working class happy to serve those that are better and thankful they get the opportunity to even when earning a minimum wage

Salt of the earth they are

Is Britain the only country where you can be "accused" of being middle class as if it was some sort of crime? Radio 4, the National Trust are examples.

I think class exists in every country, but the UK system is for instance much more rigid than the one we have in Spain, IMO.

There are so few upper class people in the UK sense that the notion itself is basically obsolete. That basically leaves you with the varying degrees of middle class and then working class. However, our middle class is so young in historical terms that it's still very flexible, both in terms of someone gaining access to it, and in terms of "mixing" with other classes.

In most extended families there will be several people who are firmly middle class and several others who are firmly working class. Also, I know plenty of couples where one person is degree educated and using their degree in their professional life and the other doesn't have a degree and/or has a manual job. (In quite a few of these couples it's the woman who is educated to degree level.) In my experience this seems to be much rarer in the UK (although, of course,my experience is limited).

Uk has quite a tame class system compared to other countries (mainly developing) that have very strong class segregation such as India,Kenya, South Africa and even in Los angeles

I don’t get the Christmas decorations thing. Yes UC and UMC people mightn’t go in for the flashing reindeer but have always been fond of a bit of kitsch. Maybe that’s one of the mysterious factors which it’s hard to “get”? Another is that having everything to colour co-ordinated, too clean, too tidy is naff. A good friend is French but has lived here for many years with a British DH and DC and she still thinks France is even more class defined than we are.

The third world countries I have lived in make the UK seem like an egalitarian utopia.

Yes Christmas decorations are hard because the 'rules' are so ill defined and there is a continuum rather than straight divide.

Hence cotton wool and pipe cleaner snowman wrapped carefully in tissue paper for years become heirlooms. Trees with beautiful little hand wound Pom Pom one eyed robins are cherished for generations. They sit very well alongside Victorian silvered glass stocking baubles and Venetian glass. 'Good' trees have an ancient star or angel in pride of place. Modern households might go for the non drop trees but most go out and chop a tree down close to Christmas. The 'real' trees are why it's non u to put decorations up to early in December.
Ever so tasteful, slick lilac and aubergine baubles on a silver tree with shimmering purple lights are always going to get 'a look'. Probably more of 'a look' than an enormous lurid lime green, unashamedly cheap, tree smothered in tinsel, angel hair, a thousand chocolates and the biggest illuminated fairy in history surrounded by reindeer and snowman lights.
But then you'll get an incredibly rich and successful family from certain parts of the world whose house will be bling central. Culture comes into it too.

In truth, we tend to mix with PLUs so might not often see the whole range and how others perceive it.

😂.

"The third world countries I have lived in make the UK seem like an egalitarian utopia."

But that is an unfair comparison. It is often used to shut down debates when us lesser beings are protesting about things. I've seen it used,in particular to shut down Feminist debates, because Women in Muslim countries have it so much worse.

Yes they do, but if we don't progress, they certainly won't.

The third world countries I have lived in make the UK seem like an egalitarian utopia.

To be fair the UK makes Sweden and Finland seem like egalitarian utopias. Most less developed countries in Africa make all the developing countries in South America look like egalitarian utopias. Brazil makes Chile look like a egalitarian utopia. And on it goes.... That's the distribution of wealth and equality, but as this thread has shown, social class is related to but not defined by that.

I've lived in America (Manhattan and burbs) for almost twenty years. Absolutely there is a class system here.

There is an American upper class in CT and MA that is identifiable on face value (women usually blonde with well-tended hair, minimal make-up and subtly preppy clothes). They went to certain boarding schools, join the Junior Women's League, belong to certain country clubs that historically did not admit black and Jewish members, don't drive anything too flashy, have second homes in Nantucket, sit on the boards of charitable organizations, and certainly look down upon those as flash and new money, and they have had wealth in their family for generations. In CT they are concentrated in New Canaan, Greenwich and Darien. There is an accent, too, which is quite baying and chewy. It's like a subtle Katherine Hepburn.

They are in NYC, too, but in NYC it's more egalitarian and money and celebrity definitely takes you to the top.

I agree stopgap. But what you describe is a very regional upper class. Move one of those Northeastern folk to Minneapolis, Denver or Atlanta, and the vast majority of people they encounter would not recognize those class signifiers.

In my experience, the US does have regional class signifiers (think Boston Brahmins or Southern Belles) - but I still think someone from Mississippi would recognise an upper class Bostonian, and vice versa.

A counterpoint (of sorts) is in this new article by Joris Luijendijk

www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/how-i-learnt-to-loathe-england

Definitely! My Italian boyfriend used to describe people from a poor area of the country as "very low level". The French have their peasants and the Parisian elite and a middle class. I think every country has its version.

I absolutely agree with op. Subtle class distinctions and snobbery are equally pervasive in dozens of countries, including most of Europe - especially France, where the upper classes almost completely monopolise the professions and the middle classes sneer openly at those beneath them, or Austria, with its balls and uptight Mittelstand. You only have to become properly familiar with other countries to notice these things.

I am amused by the idea that the notion is somehow uniquely English - it really isn't.

In CT they are concentrated in New Canaan, Greenwich and Darien.

Spot on stopgap. In Westchester county you'll find them in Rye, Scarsdale, Briarcliff and Chappaqua, among others.

DH grew up in Greenwich and we live in the Hudson Valley. One thing that wasn't quite clear from your post is that most of the people in those towns don't qualify for that rarefied status and are simply working professionals.