to think that class isn't just a British thing

[WyclefJohn]

Class gets discussed a lot on MN, and I often see someone say something along the lines of that is such a British obsession, and you don't see it elsewhere.

In my experience, social class exists in every country, because it's a natural result of what happens when some people have more privilege then others. In my experience, I've yet to visit a country where social class doesn't to some extent determine your success in life - be it from the US, to continental Europe, Africa, Asia and so on.

When British people go abroad, they may not recognise the cues, but I am yet to see a country where they don't exist.

AIBU?

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you, OP.

Class exists everywhere, it's just incredibly pervasive in the UK.

I'm not British (well, actually I am, but it's acquired). I was born and raised in another country and live there now, but also lived in the UK for many years, so am comparing and contrasting.

Class is a defining feature of life in the UK, in way that it isn't in many other countries.

Accent is a marker there, too.

I disagree. Accent in the US denotes region of upbringing, not class. There are upper class people with Boston accents, southern accents, New York accents, etc.

New York accents derive from the early Dutch settlers, when New York was New Amsterdam and southern accents are primarily from the early French settlers.

It exists in all countries but it doesn't seem to be the all consuming obsession in other Western countries that it is in the UK.

I live in what is often called little India (in the UK). The Indian caste system my grandmother (who worked in India in the 1920s) remembered and whihc is still pervasive on the sub continent and in the UK today is 100 times more discriminatory than the English class system surely?

Oh god the judgy. Other people do classy differently. Build a bridge.

But any US person would be able to tell the differences between someone raised in a trailer and someone from posh Boston

Not necessarily. If the person raised in a trailer was educated and in a professional job, there may be little outward evidence of origins. And another important distinction, that person would not be considered "working class." I think it is much more common in the UK for people to continue to define themselves as working class because of their origins.

Also in the US, a person's income level is much more important in class distinctions. A wealthy plumber, and there are a lot of them, would be considered middle class, just as his neighbor the lawyer would. It is often said that everyone in the US considers themselves to be middle class. Obviously that is a great exaggeration, but it has some truth in it.

As for accent, there is no RP accent in the US in the same way as there is in the UK. Most everyone has a regional accent. Differences in education level can be determined by grammar and diction, but not necessarily by accent.

oh yes, some Australians for example will insist there is no class system there, but it is absolutely obvious there is, you can tell by, for example, where a person lives, where they went to school, and a little bit their accent, class exists everywhere because we do not have any truly equal societies (although some are more unequal than others)

In Britain it's really obvious, in some other countries it's more insidious.

I'm a Brit living in the US; class is just as pervasive here, but the markers are different. I'd imagine it's the same in every country, and that people are good at reading the "signs" in their home country, but it takes a while to learn or de-code them in an adopted country.

Class is a much bigger thing in Britain than it is in other Western cultures.

Also, there are accents in NZ, as there are in Australia. But they aren't as different from each other as accents throughout the UK are. They are just stronger/more neutral, depending on where you are.

Do any other countries have the equivalent of RP?

Try understanding the French class system and see where you get.
Stuff that will get you laughed out a building here is acceptable to say there.
Am talking about Paris though as I don't have experience of elsewhere.

Maybe not the equivalent of RP but I think Italy def has a bit of a hierarchy of accents...with the accent of around Florence being the best (because that’s what Dante spoke)

There’s also a north south divide

BUT there’s much more social mobility I’d say....atm the civil service is full of originally WC people from the south because they took sensible degrees and the MC youth took airy fairy degrees.

(Random fact - media studies is a very sensible degree in Italy and called ‘the science of communication’ and politics is seen as a bit of a doss)

The Conquest established a clear tiered class system. This is not necessarily remarkable, but that due to the Hundred Year War, the Island was in a sense removed from the natural European process. Land law developed differently here.

The Industrial Revolution, then, when it arrived, was able to create a very distinct class - the Clergy having been dispatched long before.

The story of recent Britain is that of conflict between the landed aristocracy and this new liberal order.

I think no one says that they are ‘mc or uc and proud’ because traditionally those classes have not been looked down on as inferior.
It’s similar to being ok to have black or Asian pride but white pride is coming from a position of privilege so is inappropriate.
No one has discriminated against you for being UC or MC in the same way that being WC has been locked people out of sections of society in the past.

Every country has social class. Some countries are more equal and it matters less. Some are less equal and it matters more. Some places the class system is racialised and people may more commonly talk in terms of race.

What seems particular to the UK is this weird idea that class is somehow independent to money and is all to do with manners or taste or breeding or whatever.

I suspect this has its origins in a sort of confidence trick on the part of the Upper classes. Desperately corralling and weponising their social capital over the centuries even as their real capital diminished.
And then the middle class version of the same behaviour: obtaining and displaying status through education.

It's not a silly question Karma, I couldn't identify an upper middle class speaker of French, or even of American English, by their accent and I genuinely wanted to know if other countries had a an equivalent in terms of accent and not just tribal idiolect. You are also mistaken in asserting that RP in the UK is a matter of mastering the pronunciation sufficiently!

My Indian friends would say that Caste was still a powerful class system - much more so than British class - but the average UK citizen is not attuned to the effect that has on people living in India.

The Emirates have a very overt and powerful, extremely racist class system where you can only advertise for specific nationalities for certain jobs. The difference in treatment and living conditions between an Emirati and a Bangladeshi construction worker are way further apart than anything we experience in the UK.

In UK, I suspect because it's less overt, the nuances are harder to understand. Little ways of speaking (not t word/lavatory as that's too obvious) but is it riding or horse riding? Sofa or Settee? Wellies, Wellington Boots or Wellingtons? Say again/pardon/what? Then labels which are acceptable- Hunters? Barbour? Burberry? M&S or grocers Lidl? Waitrose? F&F? Asda? Christmas decorations are another key indicator that are difficult to navigate. All quite subtle.

In UK (I suspect because the overt differences are less that the various groups have developed or clung to specific indicators that align them with PLUs.

Yes Crumbs. I ve had this on my kindle for a bit. Looks fascinating and far surpasses - from what I can see- the British obsession with class.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Untouchable-Penguin-Classics-Mulk-Anand/dp/0141393602/ref=sr11_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1507364837&sr=1-5&keywords=Untouchables+India.

You're right of course.

There is now lower-middle class as well isn't there, which formerly would have been working class but is just a step up

Ie a plumber with a part-time office worker partner - that would be lower middle class?

I think you're right but maybe it's more difficult to identify in other countries.

I've read, for example, that Americans who can trace their ancestry back to the pilgrims who first colonised the US are seen as being in a distinct elite class. Then, of course, there is the caste system in India.

Interesting thread. I've been perceived to be 'posh' (summer job, still not finished private school) and also been perceived to be working class (when in London) at different stages of my life. Useful perspectives, although not pleasant at the time.

I just try to be the same version of myself wherever I go.