to think that class isn't just a British thing

[WyclefJohn]

Class gets discussed a lot on MN, and I often see someone say something along the lines of that is such a British obsession, and you don't see it elsewhere.

In my experience, social class exists in every country, because it's a natural result of what happens when some people have more privilege then others. In my experience, I've yet to visit a country where social class doesn't to some extent determine your success in life - be it from the US, to continental Europe, Africa, Asia and so on.

When British people go abroad, they may not recognise the cues, but I am yet to see a country where they don't exist.

AIBU?

Of course other countries have a class system

But we are particularly obsessive about it where other countries religion and race play more into where you are placed in society and social mobility moving up a class is celebrated where here it isn't

And yes many working class are proud becuase for generations they were trampled on and controlled and continued to accept their lot and now there is a chance for them to have more control over their lives and to better their lives and not be grateful for just getting by

I think one of the differences between the expression of class in the UK and elsewhere is the proliferation of signifiers and the significance invested in them.

Germany is just as class-ridden a society as Britain, with pervasive societal effects (the education system is a prime example), but the idea of the supermarket you shop at, the words you use for things or (throughout most of the country) the accent you speak in being a marker of your class is alien to Germans. Everyone goes to Aldi and Lidl. In many/most areas (Berlin and surrounds might be an exception) regional accent/dialect cuts across the classes and is often a source of intense pride.

‘My Brilliant Friend’ by Elena Ferrante is a fascinating read for anyone interested in class in Italy. I assume it’s an accurate depiction of life in Naples at the time. The working class seem to have spoken in dialect most of the time, rather than in Italian.

Also in Italy (Tuscany) I remember visiting some very wealthy friends of my mother’s, many years ago. They were talking about someone I didn’t know. I asked who it was and was told it was one of the ‘contadine’ (peasant girls). I didn’t know what it meant and had to ask. They didn’t think they were being rude, just describing them.

Class is quite flexible in the UK unless you are a proper old school posho. It exsists in other countries although maybe it's more status than class. Australians seem very status orientated.

I would say the plumber is still working class. It's a 'blue collar' job. Unless the plumber has a big company and employs many people and delegates all the work, and is now office based.

Of course other countries have a class system

Many underdeveloped countries have very pronounced class systems where there are clear distinctions betweent the different classes. There is no question but that these still exist in the ME and Indian subcontinent.

What is unusual in Britain is that a very defined class system has remained in a developed and relatively well-off country. Education and social mobility have not had the same effect here as elsewhere. In most other developed countries, that majority of the population consider themselves midde-class. Here in Britain, the majority consider themselves working-class.

where other countries religion and race play more into where you are placed in society

Absolutely.

The Channel, particularly, is a key element. It provided just the right amount of isolation. From the Roman Church and the Continental Revolutions.

The Plague too plays its part. The resulting labour shortages empowered the villien, and solidified upper class resolve against it.

But why should we still be beholden to post-plague societal shifts? Shouldn't we - island or no - have somehow evolved since the 14th century?

Accents are labels. They fascinate me. It amazes me how homogeneous accents across the USA states are.

You can travel hundreds of miles and the accent hardly changes and an American actor doesn't reveal very much about their background and level of education/class/privilege when they speak.

Nowhere is the label more easily read than in the UK.

That's why in the UK I used to work with people who were always trying to sound more upper class than they really were. It was so cringey. This particular affectation never happens in Ireland because it isn't necessary.

A young man started in my office yesterday and he is from near Mullingar which has similar vowel sounds to 'the traveller accent' to my Dublin ear anyway. Perhaps I'm wrong. He is articulate and coherent though but his vowels do bear similarity to the traveller vowels. He is from a traditional background though, law, parents bought him a flat. His accent is not a label that provides any more information than the geographic location of his first 18 years. It won't hold him back.

I am American, and I don't think that we have one pervasive sense of "class" which everyone would subscribe to. For instance, I don't know anyone who doesn't consider Trump to be the lowest form of white trash, but I guess that lots of people admire him.

I don't think I have ever heard Americans describe people as "upper class" or "lower class", except maybe ironically. This is not to say that we are unjudgemental, but we don't have neat classifications to slot people into, perhaps because the country is so huge, so multicultural, and so varied.

In England, you have more of a tradition of people being proud to be working class or proud to be aristocratically born. When I moved here, I definitely felt people trying to figure out which box I belonged in.

I think, on the other hand, that lots of British upper class people would consider your royal family to be pretty vulgar, not particularly classy.

a small group of people who can master pronunciation at that level? Oh dear.

I agree with Claraschu, in Ireland there seem to be several different types of people. You have your farming hierarchies, political cronies
your hipster socodu gaelige types, west of ireland surfing vegan types, academia, church of ireland, old school catholic. There can be over lap but there doesn't seem to be ONE tribe. But in the UK, the Tribe that is THE tribe is very clear. The Blue Blood Tribe. At least that's how it can seem from the outside looking in. That's why you get people pretending to be from that background when they weren't.

I disagree. Accent in the US denotes region of upbringing, not class. There are upper class people with Boston accents, southern accents, New York accents, etc.

And I, in turn, disagree! strong regional accents are indeed a class marker in the US - think about a 'hillbilly' accent or a really strong (Janice from Friends) 'Noo Yawk' accent. Upper class people in the US might have distinct Southern (say) accents but they're not like that. Just like how here you might be pretty posh and have Northern vowels, but you're not going to have a full-blown Newcastle (say) accent.

How an earth are Christmas decorations class markers? I'm in intrigued!

Tinsel is very non-U for a start. Coloured lights as well.

MargaretCavendish, there does seem to be less variance per mile and per dollar in the USA though.

It seems to be that there are vast swathes of America where there is no really strong accent. I do acknowledge that as I'm not American myself there are things i'm not picking up on. However I think I have a good ear for accents.

strong regional accents are indeed a class marker in the US - think about a 'hillbilly' accent or a really strong (Janice from Friends) 'Noo Yawk' accent.

I am from New York and have what's called a mid-Atlantic accent, which is what you'll hear from American news presenters. I work with several doctors who have very strong "Nue Yawk" accents and I don't think anyone meeting them would associate them with lower classes. Hillbilly (which is considered a pejorative term, by the way) accents are not readily distinguished from other regional southern accents.

I think that the difference here is attitudinal. I, like most Americans, hear a distinct accent and make the association with a location, not socioeconomic status. Boston is a well educated city and quite prosperous, but I don't consider it a posh accent. The one major TV series set in Boston (Cheers) often used it for comedic effect.

Christmas decorations are very class obvious. It is rare to see a large country house lit up like the tree itself with inflatable reindeer and flashing coloured lights.
Lower class indicators might include coloured or flashing lights - particularly outside. A house of plastic tutt. Banners with Merry Xmas. Plastic trees. Decorations up early in December unless you're a school or hotel. 'Funny' decorations. Tinsel. Fake snow on windows. Themed or colour coordinated tree decorations. Chocolate Pepper Pig advent calendars. Pillow cases or sacks.

Higher class indicators might be real trees, warm white lights. Heirloom baubles passed through family or collected by family over time - Each with memories attached. A fresh wreath (s). A nativity set. Fresh flowers as mainstay decorations. Lots of real greenery. Stewart tartan rather than glitter. An advent wreath. Family reusable advent calendars. Handmade, individual stockings used every year. White church candles in decent holders. Candlestick ribbons and rings.

It's not an absolute science.

Yes I can see that now. I do love seeing giant lit up reindeer on houses at Christmas.
What about tinsel on dogs at Christmas? Where does that fit?

Dh insists on the tackiest of tack xmas decs. He has outside and I have inside. He thinks he's hilarious pulling out the massive smurf decoration and putting it on the tree. We had a huge argument when I found he didn't package my glass decs properly from the year before. Definitely shows our heritage!! I'm growing quite fond of the Santa on the lawn though I have to admit. And the kids just love it.

Everywhere has class issues but Britain is one of the worst if not THE worst.

Class issues are more pervasive in the UK.

Class mobility is very difficult if not impossible regardless of changes to your financial or other social indicators.

Class issues are hopelessly tied up with racism and xenophobia.

The biggest reason for Britains' very poor reputation on class issues is the way we treat our immigrants. We do not respect foreign class structures (or much else really). Africans will recognise the phrase 'London the Leveller'. It doesn't matter who or what you are 'back home' you're nothing more than an immigrant here. (Excluding ofc the 2% who are in a different world)

Black is a class. It doesn't matter if you're a African lawyer or Caribbean diplomat. In this country you are black and all the connotations that go with it.

Indian is a class. And it doesn't even matter if you're not fucking Indian, Brits don't care that much about actual geographic borders. One of the ugly truths about the decline in respect for the medical profession is it's changing demographic.

I'm grateful to the amazing Bonnie Greer who taught dw & I that lesson at a talk, explaining why black educated Brits 'escape' to the USA and ironically she can make the reverse emigration positively because she belongs to the 'American class' (provided you stick around long enough to catch her accent).

Bonnie Greer's wise words have been invaluable to the success of both our careers. Unfortunately, it's not in her published work AFAIK, but I hope she does write about it in the future.

Im in Denmark. There are class differences but no Danish person will ever admit it because they love their equality and commonality (is that a word?). I think your level of education is actually the best marker. I have a medium ongoing education (professional bachelor degree) but all my ILs either have a technical education (electrician, plumber, builder) or a short education (carers mostly). I find it much easier to make small talk with others who have a medium or long education. Its really not ok to sneer at people with 'lesser' jobs because we need people in those jobs. But you can see the difference if you go to our local market and then drive for 40 minutes to go to the theatre.

In the UK the only class snobbery Ive ever encountered has been reverse snobbery. Every. Time.

Arf at class being defined by Christmas decorations, whether you say loo or toilet, and what brands you wear. Class in the U.K. is about who your parents were. And their grandparents, and even earlier generations. Whether they were landowners or peasants or that narrow band in between. Which strata of landowner they were in. Where you fit. It's one of the only countries I'm aware of where someone can make a stinking great fortune, and still not be accepted as one of the elite.

And some people think that by using certain words in a particular accent, and presenting their homes or bodies in certain ways, they can look like they belong with the landowner class. The reality is that the indicators are a million times more subtle than those.

However, all the research I've seen shows that class-obsession is slowly lowering, generation in generation, in this country. It's having a little resurgence, currently, riding the coat tails of Brexit. But hopefully not for long.

I'm just not clever enough to easily get a degree never mind a masters, it'd kill me, I'd be a husk........ so maybe Lazy is a class.