To wonder who's life would be prioritised, mother or baby?

[splendidisolation]

Just one of those random train of thought questions that popped up in my head.

Imagine this theoretical scenario, a mother is giving birth and the doctor's have to decide whether to save her life or the newborn on its way out.
Ethically, which would they be forced to choose and why?

Imagine the mother's partner or a family member is present. Obviously horrific, but would they be asked to decide? Who makes that decision?

when the referendum comes around it's going to be a hell of a mess and we need to be absolutely sure of facts, not emotional responses, no matter how awful individual cases may be

As already mentioned I take your point here, maryz - but how can anyone ensure the same for the rabid pro-lifers who'll certainly be backed by the might and money of the church? We've already heard of downright lies from this source and I wonder how likely it is that they'll decide a "fact based approach" is better - especially as they'll probably argue that just about anything is justified if it protects innocent babies

I realise public support for choice is better than it was, but while the church still opposes it - and while that church remains such a colossal influence - is there really any possibility of the situation genuinely changing?

those carrying that legal person are allowed to travel outside the country to have an abortion.

My (vaguely) educated guess would be that this is the case because:

1. looking the other way can be a very convenient tactic for many difficult political issues

2. influential / affluent women access abortion in this way, and many who on the face of it oppose abortion would act differently when it is their wife / daughter / sister / cousin who is affected

3. the freedom to travel is an important cornerstone of modern democracy, particularly in a country like Ireland with a far-flung diaspora

4. the practicalities of preventing (potentially) pregnant women from travelling are immense, expensive and intrusive

5. no crime is being committed on Irish soil, nor English / Scottish / Welsh soil, so the Garda have other cases to fill their time (though I suspect that a vindictive lawyer could construct a case around conspiring to commit a crime for those who support a woman travelling overseas for an abortion...)

Personally, I think that even if Irish abortion laws were the most liberal in the world, I guess females would still abort in the first 8 weeks by tablet, via the internet, unless there was a non judgemental clinic nearby. Who would pay to go to the GP to get them?

Thanks for that.

Yes clearly the law needs updating. Turning a blind eye to abortions happening in the first trimestre means that hospitals don't know what to do or even what the law says.

We are talking about abortions in the 2nd trimester though, which are considerably less.

You know, Irish women are not thick. They have careers, education, money. They live good lives.

What they don't have is the assurance that when it came to the crunch, their life is more important than the life of a yet unborn human.

The guidance issued in 2013 here is worth a read, not least because it makes clear in several places early on in the document that where a mother's life is threatened by the pregnancy a termination is legal.

The tricky bit comes, I suspect, where there is not necessarily a threat to life but a threat to the health of the mother: so a horrific delivery that leaves a woman infertile, doubly incontinent and with lower body paralysis but an alive baby is a legally acceptable outcome.

I've not seen a one article Maryz about some poor, tragic, illiterate woman who has died a tragic, horrible and painful death as a result of taking abortion pills.

Of course. But I am guessing the phrase 'there is a fetal heartbeat and this is a Catholic country' would not have been uttered to the patient. People get things wrong, my granny was an Irish Catholic and she died a horrible death. She was in terrible pain if not medicated correctly, nurses came 3 times a day I think but it could have been more. She was on high does of morphine. One nurse, described by my mother as a heartless bitch, was often late. On arriving one day, only days before my grandmother died, she found my grandmother in agony, literally screaming with the pain. She gave her smug little smile and said, "Now you are a good Catholic woman and should be able to stand a little pain, it is nothing to what Jesus went through for us." Horrific wasn't it. Was this in some little back water in Ireland with a nutcase Catholic nurse? No this was in a major English city with an English nurse. I have no idea what religion she thought she was practicing but it certainly wasn't related to the Christianity I was taught.

No profession gets it right all the time and no country does either. In my grandmother's case the nurse got it wrong, in the tragic case you quote the hospital got it wrong.

I haven't once said you support rape and incest.

Stop being so touchy!

Maryz, I think it is impossible to have a reasoned argument with some people. Fair enough not everyone thinks the same but in this case it has gone beyond that.

@Elendon, why are you laying into Maryz the way you are? She's been voting in favour of abortion for many years by the sounds of it. Why did you say she wants Irish women to be subservient?

She's not the enemy here, so what do you have against her?

And even those who can get morning after/abortion pills are afraid (and sometimes can't afford) to get follow up treatment if it goes tits up

Don't worry Maryz if that ever happens they will be given the best medical care money can buy and then prosecuted and thrown into jail for procuring an abortion.

I suspect that the conversation was in part about preparing the dad for the possibility that the baby might not survive, or might survive but with life-changing injuries or conditions as a result of the traumatic birth

I think that there would be better ways to go about it than incorrectly giving the father the impression that he has the power to choose between an unborn baby and the mother. He may not be the mother's next of kin and unless married he won't be the baby's next of kin either. That won't happen until the baby's birth is registered (assuming he is on the birth certificate).

Maryz arguments are not reasoned though.